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Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
Llew's F90 M5
- Thread starter TurboLlew
- Start date
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Bro the reality is that the new cars are not as desirable and not selling well in many markets. Since losing pininfarina as their design house they are also discovering that design is more than just listening to the internet or focus groups. Most look like fish these days and have lost the purity in design they once had. They are trying to iterate through this hoping something works while also trying to target new markets. They needed an entry level car too and not a R6M one… something 3-ish and based on an Alfa or Mas which they no longer have access to. This was what saved them way back with the “Maserati” California.
They have these absolutely horrendous optional colourways and options as well. Makes no sense. The days of a fancy expensive tricolore stripe hand painted under paint are gone. Now you get a strange dual tone front that looks like a bad car bra from the 90s.
This is as opposed to lambo which will keep a base design for a decade even now, Porsche and McLaren going the evolution route and the hypercar makers basically becoming ASMR for rich people.
Alas this also makes sure the older cars only become more sought after and out of reach for eg Me 🤣🙆🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️
The most soul stirring cars that wake up the kid inside you today are Lambos imho (new ones I mean). Looks, presence, noise and engineering.
I covered some of the Amalfi launch event on TikTok and Insta. It’s a R6M plus-sized f type with a worse interior… and the interior and screen integrations are worse than 10 year old Ferraris.
If I had to summarise I’d say Ferrari is to the supercar makers what Mercedes has become to us in the ABM luxury car fight in some sense.
Have a watch if you’re keen.
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
So I don't think my M5 liked me getting trade values this past week and shopping for new things so it decided to throw a hissy fit 
Once again I have a coolant warning light. Although it went away, BMW is quite adamant you flatbed the car in but the actual coolant loss and damage/contamination isn't that bad unless you have been topping up blindly for months. I can't see the usual signs of the coolant coming out the edges of the tank so maybe this is different or maybe it has just failed in a less conspicuous way/caught earlier.
Note from this thread I've gotten the tank replaced a couple of times already: once before it was a recall with a supposedly updated tank, then again after the recall with the 'actually' updated tank and now this may be the third time. The workshop manager said it MIGHT be an AWIC too but we will see... they are checking... I mean testing (I haven't gotten to the "we are checking" brand yet LOL.
Either way not the end of the world. It gives me a chance to imagine life without an M5 since I am in the headspace of it potentially NOT coming home (BMW's already made an offer that I am fairly happy with and it beats dealing with people coming to nitpick and lowball).
This is the only recurring issue I've had in my years of ownership now and the fix is already out there in the aftermarket. Unfortunately under motorplan, you have to play by BMWs guidelines and that involves repeating the same action and expecting a different result.
Replacement candidates include a '23 M8 Coupe, 430 Spider in a combo and condition I like, AMG GT C, and a 911 of some description (Turbo S, Targa or GT3)
My alternative is of course to just keep the F90 which is what most people suggest I do. This would be about the time for me to get a G90 but unfortunately it is still not doing anything for me The scalper dealers seem to have a ton of them that are priced 500K over what you can get one from a BMW dealer for LOL
Once again I have a coolant warning light. Although it went away, BMW is quite adamant you flatbed the car in but the actual coolant loss and damage/contamination isn't that bad unless you have been topping up blindly for months. I can't see the usual signs of the coolant coming out the edges of the tank so maybe this is different or maybe it has just failed in a less conspicuous way/caught earlier.
Note from this thread I've gotten the tank replaced a couple of times already: once before it was a recall with a supposedly updated tank, then again after the recall with the 'actually' updated tank and now this may be the third time. The workshop manager said it MIGHT be an AWIC too but we will see... they are checking... I mean testing (I haven't gotten to the "we are checking" brand yet LOL.
Either way not the end of the world. It gives me a chance to imagine life without an M5 since I am in the headspace of it potentially NOT coming home (BMW's already made an offer that I am fairly happy with and it beats dealing with people coming to nitpick and lowball).
This is the only recurring issue I've had in my years of ownership now and the fix is already out there in the aftermarket. Unfortunately under motorplan, you have to play by BMWs guidelines and that involves repeating the same action and expecting a different result.
Replacement candidates include a '23 M8 Coupe, 430 Spider in a combo and condition I like, AMG GT C, and a 911 of some description (Turbo S, Targa or GT3)
My alternative is of course to just keep the F90 which is what most people suggest I do. This would be about the time for me to get a G90 but unfortunately it is still not doing anything for me
The scalper dealers seem to have a ton of them that are priced 500K over what you can get one from a BMW dealer for LOLAttachments
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That colour is just amazing.
With the low mileage you do I would vote M8, 430 combo. You can never have too many toys.
I like the 911's but these days i dont think they make pricing sense especially the 992.1 and 992.2. If i had to have one it would be a whale tail 930 turbo.
With the low mileage you do I would vote M8, 430 combo. You can never have too many toys.
I like the 911's but these days i dont think they make pricing sense especially the 992.1 and 992.2. If i had to have one it would be a whale tail 930 turbo.
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Dravit grey exterior with a Silverstone or Ivory White/Tarufo could work. Seen a few with Taruma Brown but black paintwork (I don't want it in black or white). I detailed my mates Dravit car last week and it is an amazing colour. Different in every light from flat to pearl to greens and near-blacks (and that burst of gold flake). There is a guy around me that has an M8 in this spec but I doubt he will sell it anytime soon.
Of the rest, none are really 4C replacements TBH even if they seem to be on paper.
I see cars advertised but dealers are battling for stock. The only two options that Midrand could offer were a gran coupe which I don't want and Black which I also don't want.
Ah yes, the ongoing challenge of F90 M5 owners. As far as performance family cars go, the negatives are very small. New ones do nothing for me. I have hope for the Neue Klasse design language and the general outline of the M3. I also like having a clear ICE and EV path as opposed to the G90 which is just 'confused' and compromised. Time will tell I guess. Upgrade paths are not all that clear and I still think I am 10 (or 20) years too young to buy a Flying Spur
Someone must write a book on 911 pricing and how it makes any sense at present. There are low spec cars meant to be entry points to the brand sitting for years unsold at 3 bar which can't be a good sign... especially not for a brand that is both facing profitability challenges AND asking buyers to jump through hoops for cars that are special but not THAT special. Its like Tudor suddenly expecting you to jumpt through the same hoops as Rolex.
...but following from the point above, the 'regular traffic' 911s that are priced super high make slightly older Turbo/S and 'plain' GT3s look like good deals somehow. Again - someone must write a book about how a 6MT, cloth interior Carrera T with no options in 'investor' spec is supposed to cost 700K more than a slightly used GT3 of any year.
That's why you need to get either a GT3 or even a GT4....Dravit grey exterior with a Silverstone or Ivory White/Tarufo could work. Seen a few with Taruma Brown but black paintwork (I don't want it in black or white). I detailed my mates Dravit car last week and it is an amazing colour. Different in every light from flat to pearl to greens and near-blacks (and that burst of gold flake). There is a guy around me that has an M8 in this spec but I doubt he will sell it anytime soon.
Of the rest, none are really 4C replacements TBH even if they seem to be on paper.
View attachment 32354 View attachment 32355
I see cars advertised but dealers are battling for stock. The only two options that Midrand could offer were a gran coupe which I don't want and Black which I also don't want.
Ah yes, the ongoing challenge of F90 M5 owners. As far as performance family cars go, the negatives are very small. New ones do nothing for me. I have hope for the Neue Klasse design language and the general outline of the M3. I also like having a clear ICE and EV path as opposed to the G90 which is just 'confused' and compromised. Time will tell I guess. Upgrade paths are not all that clear and I still think I am 10 (or 20) years too young to buy a Flying Spur
Someone must write a book on 911 pricing and how it makes any sense at present. There are low spec cars meant to be entry points to the brand sitting for years unsold at 3 bar which can't be a good sign... especially not for a brand that is both facing profitability challenges AND asking buyers to jump through hoops for cars that are special but not THAT special. Its like Tudor suddenly expecting you to jumpt through the same hoops as Rolex.
...but following from the point above, the 'regular traffic' 911s that are priced super high make slightly older Turbo/S and 'plain' GT3s look like good deals somehow. Again - someone must write a book about how a 6MT, cloth interior Carrera T with no options in 'investor' spec is supposed to cost 700K more than a slightly used GT3 of any year.
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TBP88
Well-known member
I'm not sure where you can get older GT3s in the 2.3ish range, but I do get the point. 997.1GT3s are creeping towards the mid 2s, pretty special car but a hard ask into those sorts of prices for what it is (a near 20yr old car at this point). 991.1GT3 is probably also around there in the mid 2s, but of course that car is auto only, but sounds, looks and drives great. So it comes down to how much you hate a PDK.Dravit grey exterior with a Silverstone or Ivory White/Tarufo could work. Seen a few with Taruma Brown but black paintwork (I don't want it in black or white). I detailed my mates Dravit car last week and it is an amazing colour. Different in every light from flat to pearl to greens and near-blacks (and that burst of gold flake). There is a guy around me that has an M8 in this spec but I doubt he will sell it anytime soon.
Of the rest, none are really 4C replacements TBH even if they seem to be on paper.
View attachment 32354 View attachment 32355
I see cars advertised but dealers are battling for stock. The only two options that Midrand could offer were a gran coupe which I don't want and Black which I also don't want.
Ah yes, the ongoing challenge of F90 M5 owners. As far as performance family cars go, the negatives are very small. New ones do nothing for me. I have hope for the Neue Klasse design language and the general outline of the M3. I also like having a clear ICE and EV path as opposed to the G90 which is just 'confused' and compromised. Time will tell I guess. Upgrade paths are not all that clear and I still think I am 10 (or 20) years too young to buy a Flying Spur
Someone must write a book on 911 pricing and how it makes any sense at present. There are low spec cars meant to be entry points to the brand sitting for years unsold at 3 bar which can't be a good sign... especially not for a brand that is both facing profitability challenges AND asking buyers to jump through hoops for cars that are special but not THAT special. Its like Tudor suddenly expecting you to jumpt through the same hoops as Rolex.
...but following from the point above, the 'regular traffic' 911s that are priced super high make slightly older Turbo/S and 'plain' GT3s look like good deals somehow. Again - someone must write a book about how a 6MT, cloth interior Carrera T with no options in 'investor' spec is supposed to cost 700K more than a slightly used GT3 of any year.
With a new GT3 being a R5m+ car if you even do light spec on it they really are operating in a different market now in terms of what else you can get, especially if you're willing to run something off plan - I've said it before, part of the reason I can't see myself parting with the GT4 is that unless I fall into "decent sized lotto" money, I can't see a world where I can upgrade - I don't want a 4rs (also a mid 4m car), I would want a GT3Touring, and even of the older gen you're more like 4m than anything else, let alone the latest ones in nice spec (more like 5+). And this is before we start talking S/T or some other special edition.
As much as a 430/458 "seems" like a fun car to own the maintaining is simply unsustainable for a car that's gonna see use - add to that, especially in a 430's case, it really isn't very fast relative to modern stuff (I'd guess it's about ~ as fast as a GT4 in most drivers hands), you're paying R2m-2.5m+ for a car slower than a last gen M4, with maintaining hassles I'd shudder to think of if something goes wrong and with much much more "look at me" factor than pretty much anything else on road. At least a 458 is legitimately still pretty quick (though again, we're now taking a big leg up in prices, more 4m+) and again, you're on your own in terms of running the thing - and it'll be auto only (and I'd be pretty confident that a 991.1GT3RS would be materially faster for a million cheaper). Heck, even a gen2 R8V10 is probably a good call - add to that car you can get motorplan extended until the second coming - 22/23 cars hovering around mid 3s. But of course badge snobbery counts against this car a lot!
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
I am fine with having a car off plan and something older. Its a matter of burning the cash on buying something old outright or burning the cash on something new but then still financing the balance
Some smart finance dude/data scientist probably figured this out when determining pricingNew Porsches are out of the question. I went to Porsche JHB yesterday to look at those Ts and you may as well be in a Golf. I don't hate PDK at all... probably the opposite. Not looking for a manual experience necessarily.
The 430 needs to be in good shape which the one lonely candidate I am considering is - in terms of it being fully refreshed suspension wise, up to date on belt services, clutch etc. It is a very visceral experience. It's also not in the usual colour combo. Alot of attention yes but probably not alot more than my Alfa gets the few times I've driven one. The kind of attention (as I've mentioned before) is probably not as 'universally positive' with these but it is what it is. You are not anonymous like you are in a Porsche or M or AMG (in JHB anyway). Until it hits its gearing limits, the 4C is easily EASILY faster than a 430... it's the #1 thing that has kept me out of a cheap Ferrari so far
Hopping into the Alfa and then having a materially better experience in many ways. I suppose it's the same having a GT4 and then trying to 'upgrade' to a non-special 911. I am also not sure the exhaust note is particularly great, even with a Novitec exhaust.458 is indeed better and has a much better gearbox. It is also pretty much 2 million rands more. The running costs are not much more than keeping an E60 M5 alive, if I look at what my V10 owning friends pay for things vs. what is in the histories of most of these cars. Are they large? Yes. are they impossible to afford? No. At some point you have to jump in though (if you want to be in this market I guess). I should have probably bought one 2 years ago when you could buy them for under 3M at Ferrari... but such is life. I probably wasn't able to get out of my F90 just yet then vs. now.
Not about the speed at all. It's the same way people buy E92s which are slow AF and unreliable AF and even worse relative to the actual value of the thing in terms of repairs and frequency of repairs... but they love something about them. The 4C guys who have gone into 599s and 360s have had good experiences buying these sorts of things from Ferrari themselves as opposed to the cars at random dealers. Ferrari does a lot of refurb to the point these present as basically new cars. I think if you are totally unprepared the bills will shock you but if you know what you're in for it's OK. Not everything will go wrong with every car either (as with every brand but we convince ourselves of this when we are researching things). If not then (as with the FF vs. F90 at the time) you go with what you're comfortable with risk wise so I ended up in my F90.
Anyway, it's relative: sustaining an M5 or M6 off plan is unsustainable to some. People might have said the same for my Alfa (actually did advise me to get rid of it before the plan ended because Alfas are shit despite never having owned one LOL). I've seen Porsche bills that are not cheap either (and for absolutely dumb crap as well - as dumb as with Ferrari or BMW or Mercedes LOL). Either way there isn't any logic or value equation to it. I'll buy what I like at the end of the day and what 'convinces' me enough. The cars that are interesting in that price range between 2 & 3 are exactly what I mentioned: Older GT3s (991.1/2), Older Turbo Ses and these older Ferraris.
The only modern BMW I'd want is an M8 and even then only in a specific spec which I probably will only know when I see it... the only interesting newer Porsche remotely in range is the unobtanium Spyder RS which ticks many many boxes for me. Everything else is priced to target the wallets of Ferrari/McLaren/Lambo clients and I am not sure (outside of 'investors') they are actually winning with actual owners/drivers.
R8 yes can be an option. Odds of finding a V10 Plus in a range that makes any sense relative to other things is also seemingly gone (probably after realising how long these can have extended plans for). There's also a hefty premium for cars that can still be financed in general as most of these are now outside of the 'financeable' window.
Either way, if it is just 'speed' I already have more of it than I know what to do with and the upgrades are many millions too far out. I guess it's more looking for something different.
Let's see - I was quite gung ho yesterday about getting that 430 and this morning feel quite differently having gone on a run with the 4C and missing my F90 wondering if they've finished with their coolant diagnosis yet LOL
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
So I don't think my M5 liked me getting trade values this past week and shopping for new things so it decided to throw a hissy fit
View attachment 32345 View attachment 32346
Once again I have a coolant warning light. Although it went away, BMW is quite adamant you flatbed the car in but the actual coolant loss and damage/contamination isn't that bad unless you have been topping up blindly for months. I can't see the usual signs of the coolant coming out the edges of the tank so maybe this is different or maybe it has just failed in a less conspicuous way/caught earlier.
Note from this thread I've gotten the tank replaced a couple of times already: once before it was a recall with a supposedly updated tank, then again after the recall with the 'actually' updated tank and now this may be the third time. The workshop manager said it MIGHT be an AWIC too but we will see... they are checking... I mean testing (I haven't gotten to the "we are checking" brand yet LOL.
Either way not the end of the world. It gives me a chance to imagine life without an M5 since I am in the headspace of it potentially NOT coming home (BMW's already made an offer that I am fairly happy with and it beats dealing with people coming to nitpick and lowball).
This is the only recurring issue I've had in my years of ownership now and the fix is already out there in the aftermarket. Unfortunately under motorplan, you have to play by BMWs guidelines and that involves repeating the same action and expecting a different result.
Replacement candidates include a '23 M8 Coupe, 430 Spider in a combo and condition I like, AMG GT C, and a 911 of some description (Turbo S, Targa or GT3)
My alternative is of course to just keep the F90 which is what most people suggest I do. This would be about the time for me to get a G90 but unfortunately it is still not doing anything for me
Also excellent news from BMW: It was just the cap that had failed this time around - F90 will be back in action soon 🥳
That there is the problem with cars today, everyone is looking at the power and performance figures and not how the car feels and makes you feel.
The car mkt is worse than ever..G8x car prices are so price gouged by BMW dealers currently..and then there is the Porsche 911..prev gen which land around 2-2.3 for the Carrerra S and over 3bar for current Gen which is laughable.
The Audi R8 is much more special than a M8.. there is a 2019 for 2.5m..20k mileage private sale..not the plus version though. But still a great spec.
The Audi R8 is much more special than a M8.. there is a 2019 for 2.5m..20k mileage private sale..not the plus version though. But still a great spec.
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
I am going to see a couple of V10s early next year (2015, 2017 and 2019). Not in the colours I'd like but let's see... Still in the range of allowing me to keep everything I have comfortably.
I very nearly bought a V8 MT R8 a few years ago. They are very nice cars, but I need the V10 if it's going to be an R8.
As is tradition, I also looked at a few GT-Rs. I like GT-Rs and have always wanted one, so I always look at them when shopping. I either quickly get put off by what is available or they are just not as interesting as other things available for the money. The cost to get those insane numbers isn't trivial either... and many stories of guys who may as well have added their tuner as a signatory on their bank accounts
Probably why so many come up for sale basically for the cost of those mods (in various states of disrepair abuse too).Thanks... I think the few days without it made it very evident that it would be more missed than I had thought. Another decision made then... I am going to buy those BMW black oil services from April and see how it goes.
For the road, at some point a car is just "fast" and everything else is largely irrelevant. We are led to believe (like everything in life, it seems) via a flood of "information" and paid-for content that the magic is in the car itself or the badge... or that there are MASSIVE differences based on a small spec difference that just aren't there. There's also repeatability where some cars will do those figures ONCE but then need to recharge/cool off or have counters in their ECUs ready to report back to home that you've been 'abusing' the car by using the manufacturer supplied features LOL... others with the same stats may be able to carry on carrying on indefinitely...
"I did my research" these days usually just means consuming marketing material (or propaganda) and believing you are somehow better informed... but I digress.
I can appreciate the placebo effect and how a "competition" or "S" or "edition" badge of some sort can make you think its going to be a night and day difference on the road and that's fine too - but the focus on the marketing fluff and paid-for influencers to close the gap between marketing and reality has become quite massive now (I feel anyway).
I was at an AMG event a few weeks ago, and it really drove home how disconnected modern performance has become. The launch control strategies they employ (especially on hybrids) has no bearing on the actual feel pottering around or driving 'spiritedly' as we do. You can get this insane time in a claimed 600kw car, that also feels like a donkey (relatively) most of the time.
Probably the biggest disappointment was that AMG GT (which like the G90, is not able to conceal its weight well) and surprisingly the star was the CLA45 S which was SO MUCH FUN to drive on both the road and around Zwartkops (and I hated the previous gen CLA BTW).
People today think they understand numbers and it is again this myth of "doing research" and "being educated" while just consuming marketing material. Even some of the takes on here/bimmerpost/rennlist etc show that even enthusiasts don't have much of an idea of what it translates to in the real world. Then Dave in accounting, who has never driven a fast car in his life, is having his midlife crisis decides he needs a 911 but also wants an investment and we end up with our new and used market
/sI don't even bother talking about power to weight any longer because nobody gets it til they've experienced it... then you must go on their journey of discovery with them as they realise that no, your 900kg RWD carbon fibre go-kart isn't just like a Mini...
"Drag" figures aside, Track times are also irrelevant unless you are the one driving. There is some pro out there who will extract all the power and handling capabilities under perfect conditions... and then the guy that actually buys it who never takes it on a breakfast run let alone the track - perhaps at-best on a heavily controlled brand day - but will talk about what it can theoretically do as though they themselves set those ring times.
Even when you ARE the one driving, speed doesn't necessarily mean enjoyment. I have had some VERY fast cars on track (some of which you have to manhandle and drag to a good time rather than connecting with them). On the other hand you have the Alfa and S2000 were the most rewarding even if they are slower and weaker on paper. My "slower-on-a-single-lap" Alfa can basically drive on track indefinitely when others are cooking various bits after a lap or two... I would imagine Cayman owners are in this same boat when they can keep up with the top-tiers of 911s on track just by virtue of connecting more naturally with them or being better/more experienced drivers.
At every non-club event we do (and I don't post much about even club things for various reasons), there are always folks amazed (or upset) they were being overtaken by ancient or ordinary things (including by Mustangs LOL). Investing in seat time is still the best thing you can do and will allow you to understand what you like and what to look for. Everyone wants average and neutral because that is what reviewers praise. They throw money at handling mods not knowing what it is they are 'fixing'. They themselves don't know what it is they like or prefer in the first place. In Alfa, BMW, Porsche and all the JDM communities there are plenty of companies set up to take advantage of "fixing" flaws that are actually a driver mod issue...
A 330d set up well in the right hands will be faster than some folks in a GT3 or Turbo S... In life in general investing in yourself first is usually the best starting point
