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Jezebel's Alpha N Supercharger tune
- Thread starter Burgy
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Crash_Nemesis
///Member
Older aircraft used staged superchargers. Stage 1 for X amount of psi at certain altitude and stage 2 for X amount at certain altitude. Stage 1 was for 5-1000feet and stage 2 was for higher.
Philip Foglar
///Member
Never thought about this, but it make absolute sense that an NA and SC would lose the same percentage of power with altitude change compared to a turbo charged setup...
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
1 bar is 14.5psi
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
922-ZN said:
Yeah man... The engine is built for boost and we not even scratching the surface.
It sucks that we need to make the charger spin faster to create the boost required, this will increase intake temps somewhat. Vortech chargers run very cool compared to roots chargers and don't need to be intercooled until they are at a certain RPM range. We haven't reached that range yet, but we will suffer some performance loss with heat soak.
Things we are going to be doing soon are water meth injection, and looking at doing the intercooler. We will need to run a 8-9psi wheel to get 4-5psi up here. More stress on the supercharger but it should be fine. The charger can run up to 17psi @ 53000rpm. I think the combination of running +-4psi with a 3:91 diff will be awesome for now.
Regarding the intercooler installation. When I say there is little to no room in there, I mean it. I have no idea how ESS and Active fit those intercooler pipes.
With that being said, I tested the car again last night, and just to confirm, only when in 4th gear at 7500rpm do I see 1psi on the boost gauge. (have to do very naughty speeds to see this).
I'm thinking of taking the car for a dyno run to get a base figure and we start moving up from there.
water to air cooler would be optimum...
the intake heat comes from the compression itself not from the turbine speed... so unless you taking the SC out of its efficiency range you will see similar temps regardless of what RPM the charger is doing...
the intake heat comes from the compression itself not from the turbine speed... so unless you taking the SC out of its efficiency range you will see similar temps regardless of what RPM the charger is doing...
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
Interesting... I will look into this.
Regarding water to air charge cooler, you're looking at R35000, ex import and customs. So, say around R45k up for just the charge cooler.
Both VF and RMS want $3500.00 for their water to air coolers. I don't trust anyone elses designs. I've seen a local water to air cooler and it's not that effective and its very restrictive.
Regarding water to air charge cooler, you're looking at R35000, ex import and customs. So, say around R45k up for just the charge cooler.
Both VF and RMS want $3500.00 for their water to air coolers. I don't trust anyone elses designs. I've seen a local water to air cooler and it's not that effective and its very restrictive.
ggrobler
Member
Crash_Nemesis said:
Hi check out the link below for charge cooler found it interesting
http://www.frozenboost.com/:
Sankekur
///Member
moranor@axis said:
Personally I would stick to an air to air intercooler just due to its simplicity, and because it can be made to work in this case. I Would only use a water to air if it isn't possible or doesn't make practical sense to use an air to air intercooler as in some roots type superchargers.
Sankekur said:
but water to air cooler decreases intake volume for better throttle response... also there is less boost loss this is why the new M cars have water to air coolers
but... I get what you saying about keeping things simple
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
This little issue of losing 4 psi up here has really made things difficult for me. We believe to get 4 psi in the engine, we need to run the charger at 8-9psi.
This requires a 2.75-2.82" wheel.
Intake temps may or may not go up, as moranor said, the chargers efficiency should still be ok. Vortech themselves said their V3 chargers do not require intercoolers/charger coolers until after 8-9psi.
Burgy and Peter have both advised that I run a progressive Meth kit with the smaller wheel to keep things safe. The intercooler route requires more time and testing as my supercharger has a 90degree bend on the outlet side, where as ESS's V3 chargers have a straight outlet. So, we either have to modify my superchargers outlet, or try do piping for this 90 degree bend. There is very little room left in there.
Sigh... much to think about.
That being said, the car already lights up first gear. Tyres just spin like crazy and car catapults you into second gear. Pretty fun.
This requires a 2.75-2.82" wheel.
Intake temps may or may not go up, as moranor said, the chargers efficiency should still be ok. Vortech themselves said their V3 chargers do not require intercoolers/charger coolers until after 8-9psi.
Burgy and Peter have both advised that I run a progressive Meth kit with the smaller wheel to keep things safe. The intercooler route requires more time and testing as my supercharger has a 90degree bend on the outlet side, where as ESS's V3 chargers have a straight outlet. So, we either have to modify my superchargers outlet, or try do piping for this 90 degree bend. There is very little room left in there.
Sigh... much to think about.
That being said, the car already lights up first gear. Tyres just spin like crazy and car catapults you into second gear. Pretty fun.
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
Some new info.
Burgy and I took the car out now for some tests. Plugged in INPA and drove the car, watching adaptions and intake temps.
The car does not go over 58° even at full Wide open Throttle. And as we speed up, the temp actually drops down to around 50°. This was done today at around 12:30pm. Infact, we had higher temps whilst sitting still in traffic. Obviously with no air flow intake temps will rise. We have an intake temperature sensor inside the manifold. This is after the supercharger, so we are reading temperatures as they come into the manifold.
Actually raced a tuned up Audi S4/RS4 touring. Was debadged. Couldn't tell whether he was S or RS. Maybe someone can enlighten me. Guy was revving the tits off his V8 when he saw BURGY and I at the gas station and was doing some wheel spins in front of us. Obviously trying to show his "dominance" by having a v8. Even in NA form I know we would have taken him, but we made quick work of him at the next traffic lights. Was as if his car suddenly went into reverse. He piped down after that.
Good fun. Anyway, car never saw anything higher than 58° even after a few hard pulls against the AUDI. Driving her normally at 60kph saw intake temps around +-40°. VF engineering/ESS and Active Autowerke do not run an intercooler in their stage 1 kits. The Intake temps we have are safe, but we could be getting a lot more power with cooler temps. Looks like water meth is needed. I read that some turbo cars run intake temps of up to 80-90° etc - Can someone confirm? I'll do more reading. VF/ESS stage 2 kits run intercooler/charge coolers plus 2psi more and suddenly get massive amounts of power. So, this is the route we may need to go.
Burgy has acquired an HPF meth system for the M3. We might be putting this in Jezebel depending on what meth route he decides for his Turbo M3 build. We will then be going to a 2.82" pulley wheel to get more boost.
More soon.
Burgy and I took the car out now for some tests. Plugged in INPA and drove the car, watching adaptions and intake temps.
The car does not go over 58° even at full Wide open Throttle. And as we speed up, the temp actually drops down to around 50°. This was done today at around 12:30pm. Infact, we had higher temps whilst sitting still in traffic. Obviously with no air flow intake temps will rise. We have an intake temperature sensor inside the manifold. This is after the supercharger, so we are reading temperatures as they come into the manifold.
Actually raced a tuned up Audi S4/RS4 touring. Was debadged. Couldn't tell whether he was S or RS. Maybe someone can enlighten me. Guy was revving the tits off his V8 when he saw BURGY and I at the gas station and was doing some wheel spins in front of us. Obviously trying to show his "dominance" by having a v8. Even in NA form I know we would have taken him, but we made quick work of him at the next traffic lights. Was as if his car suddenly went into reverse. He piped down after that.
Good fun. Anyway, car never saw anything higher than 58° even after a few hard pulls against the AUDI. Driving her normally at 60kph saw intake temps around +-40°. VF engineering/ESS and Active Autowerke do not run an intercooler in their stage 1 kits. The Intake temps we have are safe, but we could be getting a lot more power with cooler temps. Looks like water meth is needed. I read that some turbo cars run intake temps of up to 80-90° etc - Can someone confirm? I'll do more reading. VF/ESS stage 2 kits run intercooler/charge coolers plus 2psi more and suddenly get massive amounts of power. So, this is the route we may need to go.
Burgy has acquired an HPF meth system for the M3. We might be putting this in Jezebel depending on what meth route he decides for his Turbo M3 build. We will then be going to a 2.82" pulley wheel to get more boost.
More soon.
gavsadler
///Member
For what its worth, I measured intake temps on my Ute a while back, I had the probe sitting just before the throttle body. My intake temps were anywhere between 3-10 degrees above ambient. So that proved that my big cooler is doing the job.
A friend also has a Devils Own meth kit in his OPC, and with a 50% mix, his intake temps were at ambient, or even up to 10 degrees lower than ancient. So this is a worthwhile addition to consider.
Lastly, years ago I remember reading something that for every 15 degrees you can decrease intake temperatures, it equates to a 1% increase in power, although I'm not sure how accurate this is.
A friend also has a Devils Own meth kit in his OPC, and with a 50% mix, his intake temps were at ambient, or even up to 10 degrees lower than ancient. So this is a worthwhile addition to consider.
Lastly, years ago I remember reading something that for every 15 degrees you can decrease intake temperatures, it equates to a 1% increase in power, although I'm not sure how accurate this is.
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
Thanks Gav. This does bring some insight.
When we do the intercooler, I may pick your brain for some more insight. Maybe get TNT to make my boost pipes too.
Thanks man.
When we do the intercooler, I may pick your brain for some more insight. Maybe get TNT to make my boost pipes too.
Thanks man.
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
I need to get enough torque so I can spin the world in reverse and at the same time reverse the aging process... Ie. find the cure for aging... It's my secret plan.
:fencelook:
:fencelook:
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