The Era of Bench Flashing has Returned

[kilotango]

Here is my 2c, when you buy a BMW the MP contract is between the Owner of the car and BMW. The owners are fully aware of the MP implications when modifying their cars or taking part in any unauthorized Motorsport events.

If the owners accept the risk and tunes the car, then that liability sits with the owner. If something were to go wrong with the car, the owner decides whether to claim via MP or not, not the tuner. Yes the ECU can be returned back to stock, but that is done on the request of the owner.

It’s like an athlete taking a banned substance, the substance maybe legally produced, but the athlete takes the risk of being caught using the substance, not the manufacture of the substance.

xcede's driving point here, is that their flashing system has made it passed OEM checks... so: 'we've never been caught so far even though 6 of our athletes have been called up for testing'

eventually the customer of that car will get busted, so he loses his warranty only.. the costs of car development go up for everyone else.

why should others have to suffer because some bliksem wants a 100kw more out of his new M4 and got his ECU modded? Gizmo is 100% correct here

 

[TBP88]

Yes I agree that it is unethical to claim from motorplan when something goes wrong as a direct result of the vehicle being modded, but coming on the forum and telling the advertisers and their customers that what they're doing is naughty naughty is not exactly helpful. BMW AG is a US$ 800 billion company. The high prices of vehicles and parts are not because of 1% (thumbsuck) of their client basis modding their cars and then claiming for repairs on motorplan.

These guys are milking every consumer who can afford their products because it's the way of business, and their consumers are fine with it because said products are in high demand.

If you can't afford a BMW or their parts, instead of blaming people on the forums for it, why not go buy a Kia instead...?

I can afford a BMW and the associated costs, but that doesn't mean I'm SUPER happy about paying an extra 50 bucks because that 1% acts in an unethical manner.

The question then becomes if you knowingly provide a service that can be used unethically, are you in some way morally responsible.

According to Gizmo and some others, yes, according to a few others, no.

I think it's a question of personal choice. If you're the guy who tunes his car, accepts that MP is voided and pays out of pocket when x or y goes wrong. Good on you - your actions have impacted nobody but yourself.

If you're the guy who tunes his car and then nefariously attempts to get around MP controls to still receive free service/parts - then you're acting utterly selfishly without regard for others (in this case the dealership/BMW who have to cough up for your "naughty naughty" and the other consumers who will face higher costs as a result of this).

In my view they should just do away with MP and give us the saving. If dudes wanna mod cars and do whatever then let them. If you want an MP you pay extra up front (much like how MP extension now works) and agree to do no modifications for the duration thereof.

 

[ChefDJ]

Yes I agree that it is unethical to claim from motorplan when something goes wrong as a direct result of the vehicle being modded, but coming on the forum and telling the advertisers and their customers that what they're doing is naughty naughty is not exactly helpful. BMW AG is a US$ 800 billion company. The high prices of vehicles and parts are not because of 1% (thumbsuck) of their client basis modding their cars and then claiming for repairs on motorplan.

These guys are milking every consumer who can afford their products because it's the way of business, and their consumers are fine with it because said products are in high demand.

If you can't afford a BMW or their parts, instead of blaming people on the forums for it, why not go buy a Kia instead...?

I can afford a BMW and the associated costs, but that doesn't mean I'm SUPER happy about paying an extra 50 bucks because that 1% acts in an unethical manner.

The question then becomes if you knowingly provide a service that can be used unethically, are you in some way morally responsible.

According to Gizmo and some others, yes, according to a few others, no.

I think it's a question of personal choice. If you're the guy who tunes his car, accepts that MP is voided and pays out of pocket when x or y goes wrong. Good on you - your actions have impacted nobody but yourself.

If you're the guy who tunes his car and then nefariously attempts to get around MP controls to still receive free service/parts - then you're acting utterly selfishly without regard for others (in this case the dealership/BMW who have to cough up for your "naughty naughty" and the other consumers who will face higher costs as a result of this).

In my view they should just do away with MP and give us the saving. If dudes wanna mod cars and do whatever then let them. If you want an MP you pay extra up front (much like how MP extension now works) and agree to do no modifications for the duration thereof.

Two problems (in red) above:

Firstly, absolutely no service/repair carried out on your vehicle under motorplan (not warranty) is free. You paid for that shit when you bought the car. This is why you are entitled to those claims, and BMW has all of this covered in the exorbitantly high prices they sell the cars for.

Which brings me to the second problem, being that this part right here (option of buying without motorplan) is exactly what people planning on modding their cars get to do, but not in SA. It's only here that a motorplan is not negotiable when buying a new car. In many other countries, motorplan is basically optional, and you pay extra for it. Without it, prices are decreased tremendously.

So I still say that "BMW having to babysit the naughty boys" is a poor excuse of parts pricing being high.

 

[Kimeran]

....
And in this same breath, cars with a bench flash tested by this same low level diagnostics or FASTA or any other method have not been detected to have been flashed. I personally have had 6 cars scanned specifically for mods and they have not been detected.
......

uhh, so someone can take their new M4 in for flashing, then have their car explode and STILL claim on motorplan??

that doesnt sound good to me...and sounds like some serious abuse of motor plan.

while i can say well done on hacking, cracking and selling this as a service.. the fact that you're still allowing people to make claims on motorplan is just wrong. any way... you know, Karma and all that jazz...

Ok so clear this up for me please....
Let's say there is 100 M4 owners, and 60 want to play with the car and claim from motorplan, and 40 want to mod and don't give a damn about motorplan.
Now there are 40 potential customers who are willing to do "the right thing."
Must Sherwin turn those guys away and refuse business because they may claim from motorplan?

Yes he uses the "BMW can't pick it up" line as a marketing strategy, but that's simply because hardly anyone wants to go to a tuner if they risk losing motorplan. The decision to screw BMW over or not is still entirely up to you.

BMW has two simply options here:
1) Sell their cars with motorplan as an optional extra
2) Void warranty on that specific part if a mod is detected, not the entire motorplan.

 

[TBP88]

If a part outside of normal, expected failure, fails, then you are receiving a free part.

BMW's actuarial model will be around some sort of distribution of expected part failures;

So the probability of a complete engine failure on an M4 is (say) 0.1%, now you mod it and that probability is 0.5%, that means you've taken on 0.4% extra risk, that you haven't paid for. That is getting something for free (assuming you take the car and get it fixed by BMW because your mod is untraceable).

This is a toy example, but serves the point reasonably well, BMW's offer of motorplan isn't them saying "anything that breaks we will fix, so break everything", if BMW had to replace even 10% of their cars major components under plan in SA their bottom line would be shot.

I agree that the operating model in SA isn't ideal, but that is what it is right now.

 

[ChefDJ]

If a part outside of normal, expected failure, fails, then you are receiving a free part.

BMW's actuarial model will be around some sort of distribution of expected part failures;

So the probability of a complete engine failure on an M4 is (say) 0.1%, now you mod it and that probability is 0.5%, that means you've taken on 0.4% extra risk, that you haven't paid for. That is getting something for free (assuming you take the car and get it fixed by BMW because your mod is untraceable).

This is a toy example, but serves the point reasonably well, BMW's offer of motorplan isn't them saying "anything that breaks we will fix, so break everything", if BMW had to replace even 10% of their cars major components under plan in SA their bottom line would be shot.

I agree that the operating model in SA isn't ideal, but that is what it is right now.

I disagree with the statements highlighted.

I understand your logic, but you really have covered a lot more motorplan "expenses" in the purchase of your car, and when I say expenses I mean cost price to BMW, seeing as the sale of a motorplan is there to make profit but the use of the motorplan is not (from BMW's side).

Example: the retail price of an M4 engine is 200k (thumbsuck here, remember). The retail price of an M4 motorplan is 300k. You thereby think that 300k is not enough to cover the engine and gearbox and turbos and and and, thus you deduce that motorplan only covers basic expenses before it becomes a loss to BMW once claims exceed 300k . This is incorrect as far as I have learned. See, if you were to claim for a new M4 engine, it doesn't cost BMW 200k. It costs BMW a fraction of that.

 

[moranor@axis]

better diagnostics is good for everyone and makes for better cars its not just for catching tuners

a little bit of extra coding to catch tuners is hardly going to cost more when data logging is there anyway to improve the cars

 

[TBP88]

If a part outside of normal, expected failure, fails, then you are receiving a free part.

BMW's actuarial model will be around some sort of distribution of expected part failures;

So the probability of a complete engine failure on an M4 is (say) 0.1%, now you mod it and that probability is 0.5%, that means you've taken on 0.4% extra risk, that you haven't paid for. That is getting something for free (assuming you take the car and get it fixed by BMW because your mod is untraceable).

This is a toy example, but serves the point reasonably well, BMW's offer of motorplan isn't them saying "anything that breaks we will fix, so break everything", if BMW had to replace even 10% of their cars major components under plan in SA their bottom line would be shot.

I agree that the operating model in SA isn't ideal, but that is what it is right now.

I disagree with the statements highlighted.

I understand your logic, but you really have covered a lot more motorplan "expenses" in the purchase of your car, and when I say expenses I mean cost price to BMW, seeing as the sale of a motorplan is there to make profit but the use of the motorplan is not (from BMW's side).

Example: the retail price of an M4 engine is 200k (thumbsuck here, remember). The retail price of an M4 motorplan is 300k. You thereby think that 300k is not enough to cover the engine and gearbox and turbos and and and, thus you deduce that motorplan only covers basic expenses before it becomes a loss to BMW once claims exceed 300k . This is incorrect as far as I have learned. See, if you were to claim for a new M4 engine, it doesn't cost BMW 200k. It costs BMW a fraction of that.

BMW's model will obviously not simply be "pay us x and on average we give you x" otherwise they'd not make any profit? If you think their margin is excessive (many do) then that's a separate issue.

If their model is calibrated for x amount of risk, and you are making them face x+y amount of risk then you got y that you didn't pay for. Because that "y" should itself also be marked up by tax, their margin etc. etc.

To my mind there is no way a person who mods a car, has it unmodded, and goes to BMW to get MP to pay for any failure is acting unethically.

Whether providers of services that COULD be used in this manner are themselves unethical is another question all together. To my mind if they make clear to their customers the risks and they make clear how BMW view the service offered, then I believe their hands are clean and all (moral) liability sits with the consumer.

At the end of the day I massively doubt the M4 driver with another 100k to throw at mods is that worried about my moral judgment of his/her actions. So a bit of a moot point. But to pretend like that same M4 driver who expects MP to cover his ass isn't increasing the cost for everyone is simply foolhardy, even if it's a tiny amount of extra cost, we're still paying for other people's duplicity - this is, to my mind, unequivocally, wrong.

 

[r0ckf1re]

Here is my 2c, when you buy a BMW the MP contract is between the Owner of the car and BMW. The owners are fully aware of the MP implications when modifying their cars or taking part in any unauthorized Motorsport events.

If the owners accept the risk and tunes the car, then that liability sits with the owner. If something were to go wrong with the car, the owner decides whether to claim via MP or not, not the tuner. Yes the ECU can be returned back to stock, but that is done on the request of the owner.

It’s like an athlete taking a banned substance, the substance maybe legally produced, but the athlete takes the risk of being caught using the substance, not the manufacture of the substance.

xcede's driving point here, is that their flashing system has made it passed OEM checks... so: 'we've never been caught so far even though 6 of our athletes have been called up for testing'

eventually the customer of that car will get busted, so he loses his warranty only.. the costs of car development go up for everyone else.

why should others have to suffer because some bliksem wants a 100kw more out of his new M4 and got his ECU modded? Gizmo is 100% correct here

So if every bmw was stock, they would all be cheaper and therefore more bmws on the road?

Someone made a very good point, you pay for ur warranty in advance. I'm sure there are many instances of where a car never broke in withing it's warranty period. You've already paid for it, never used it, do you get it refunded?

IMO, it's no one's business what people do with their cars, it's their money, their risk.

Well done Sherwin, great write, apart from the German, I can't comment on that


Sent from the Edge

 

[kilotango]

better diagnostics is good for everyone and makes for better cars its not just for catching tuners

a little bit of extra coding to catch tuners is hardly going to cost more when data logging is there anyway to improve the cars

i work at a software company.. i can tell you its not that simple. first you catch them, then you spend the rest of the time working on how to block them out.

................

..................

So if every bmw was stock, they would all be cheaper and therefore more bmws on the road?

Someone made a very good point, you pay for ur warranty in advance. I'm sure there are many instances of where a car never broke in withing it's warranty period. You've already paid for it, never used it, do you get it refunded?
.........

no not at all, every modded car that puts in claims which force the OEM to try and catch up with all these flashed ECU's will drive up prices.

think of this warranty like insurance.. some use it, some dont. the more people that do use it, is bad for the business. and will affect everyone because the premiums will go up. your factory car has been manufactured to be as trouble free under warranty as possible... when you mess with it, you will increase the probability of problems. you become a higher risk.

Sherwin/Xcede are partly responsible for allowing that to happen by advertising their service as undetectable by the manufacturer. this one fact is what draws the crowd in (as he has stated already)

if you want to mod, then lose your warranty and pay for the damages yourself...thats fair. with motorplan, you are pre-paying for the warranty of the unmodded car only which is fair to you and legal

 

[Kimeran]

You should then go to BMW and tell them to claim all those lost funds from the people they have screwed over by cancelling their plan for stupid reasons...

The fact that I have put on non-rft tyres on my car has jack to do with the fact that my turbo went back!
The fact that I lowered my car has nothing to do with my injectors malfunctioning!

I understand where you guys are coming from, but if we all play by the rules, then we are the ones losing out while the manufacturer gains.

 

[Quick///M]

At the end of the day, it comes down to the individual. BMW will spend R&D money to have better, less crackable interfaces and have more complex diagnostics while passing that cost to the consumer by charging higher rates for their cars and parts. The net result is suffering for the BMW buyers. But it's the individuals car, if he/she wants to crack it, mod it, race it etc. then he can do so, it isn't his responsibility to make sure we can afford the next gen of BMW cars... The hypocrisy arises when the same guys who tune their cars take them to be serviced under MP and complain when BMW tells them to stick it. If you get caught out, tough takkies. Eventually BMW won't allow any modding, no changing rims, badges, wraps, aftermarket sound etc. Everything will be banned and MP will only cover bone stock cars with OEM approved tyres changed at BMW approved fitment centres...

All at the owners risk bud, but BMW is also quite 2 faced with Motor Plan. Try and put your M4 on a track for just one LAP and see how fast they cancel your motorplan if they come to know about it. So buy a purpose built track car to drive it on the road like a granny

No debate about who is sitting with the risk, per say. But the issue is that Gizmo is right. BMW are aware of MP abuse/hipocrisy and they now spend money making tools to track modding etc.

So instead of spending bucks producing better cars, they spend money on cars they can monitor better. This cost is obviously passed onto the consumer.

The dude with a tuned M4 gives zero fucks about all of this, but if he goes back to BMW with screwed up injectors or whatever from the tune which has been untraceably returned to stock then BMW must cough up the thousands in repairs that his hipocrisy costs. So in order to cover their risk of this, BMW must invest in chasing after tuners to see how well they can lock their cars or trace any tunes done to their cars.

It's basically a cold war arms race, the only loser is the consumer who has to pay more for BMW products that have had millions of $ spent not on developing better engines, gearboxes or more comfy seats, but instead on databoxes and ECU units that can track the cars tuning history better.

Sure Motorplan abuse is there and yes the dude with the M4 should cough up for his F*UPs, but when it comes to car pricing we are getting screwed not only by bmw but other brands as well some of these brands don't even care about developing strategies for tracing mods on their cars, I guest what I am saying is either way we getting screwed by the Motor Industry be it BMW, Ford or Kia... These guys are all making a killing and each year you practically are paying more for less car. I still standby by the sentiments about supposedly pure bread sports cars which are forbidden from track use.

Also approved mods which come from bmw are really no different to some after market mods and the price comparison between an in house BMW Mod and an after marker mod is astronomical.

I do not agree with guys pushing their M4s over the limit and I have already seen a total of 6 with cancelled Motor Plans and as someone who would a use M4 one day its quite scary to think that your car was probably running some high end mods by the previous owner.

In any case great work by excede for being able to flash tune high end cars

 

[FiRi@Rennzport]

Yoh f#* talk about derail....i reckon this thread should be split. Not fair to the advertiser here.



Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

 

[Arbee]

Epic thread derail... And i mean this is an epic thread detailing a great achievement. Not that the derail was epic, the derail is stupid.

Yes, motorplan is not free its paid for when you buy the car. I wont even start to tell you the difference with motorplan in the UAE vs SA, you guys will feel buthurt... thats another thread though...

Gents that are concerned about loosing your plan/warranty now that Xcede has cracked through the ECU. Here is a simple way of understanding this; "Pay to Play". If you want to you do it understanding the risks, if you dont, park with your stock car!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[zippy320]

If those who mod their cars are not concerned about keeping their motor-plan intact , and can afford the thousands in damages or repairs of a car off motorplan , Then why do they wish to hide the mod ? Why bother making it undetectable ?

If you don't care if your looses its motorplan , who are you hiding it from? Are some on this thread trying to justify the unethical behavior of hiding a car modification that has potential financial repercussions? , that's what it looks like to me from what I have read . And I think that's wrong. This not only hurts BMWS pockets it has the potential to hurt our pockets as well and that's not only by BMW increasing its costs.

There are many crooks out there who are modifying their cars (for short periods of time) with said Undetectable mods , reselling their cars as "Unmodified" still under motorplan cars to unsuspecting buyers at Full price . ( Because lets face it , a new model Motorplan car DOES command a higher value and is more desirable to buy then a Non-motorplan car) Only for this unsuspecting buyer to find out his cars been used and abused and currently or previously modified, and now there's a high chance of his motor-plan being cancelled .

( PS: I have no issues with people modifying their cars (not all are crooks but some are) , its your car , you can do whatever you want with it, but do it honestly and I commend the OP for his performance mod ability's , its probably not easy to do what they do and they are just providing a service . But mentioning that its undetectable is a little sketchy)

Would we feel the same if a cars millage could be turned back and the change be undetectable? Selling a car with 150 000kms as one with 50 000kms? Are these mods doing the same to a cars components? Putting undue pressure on them , where by lessening their lifespans? Because that's the same as turning the clock back IMO . You don't expect a low mileage car to give you as many problems as a high mileage car , and you don't expect a Unmodified car to give you as much problems as a modified car .

Many people buy cars under motorplan for peace of mind, in that they would not have to shell out thousands should a problem arise , and many trade in before the motorplan has expired . The Majority of car buyers don't want to mod their cars or buy a modified or previously modified car. It may be difficult for some to understand on this forum but of the millions of cars sold Most are not modified in any form .

 

[Tareeq]

Ok so what exactly is the problem here? If one takes a car to a tuner to be modified one is doing it at their own risk. The tuner isn't keeping a gun to anyone's head it's up to the customer what happens from there on out. How can you blame a tuner for the customer claiming from motor plan? That's already paid for by the customer when purchasing the car? What am I missing? Why use this thread? Why not make a thread about for this debate? Well this is just my 2c

 

[speeddemon]

All I want to know is this...can this be done to E90 330D's as well and will there be Exede in Cape Town soon?

 

[zippy320]

I think this thread should be split , there are some good points on it and interesting arguments on both sides .

I see most people have a problem with the undetectable part which can lead to a whole host of issues , nobody has a problem with the tuner or tuning a car .

 

[ChefDJ]

If a part outside of normal, expected failure, fails, then you are receiving a free part.

BMW's actuarial model will be around some sort of distribution of expected part failures;

So the probability of a complete engine failure on an M4 is (say) 0.1%, now you mod it and that probability is 0.5%, that means you've taken on 0.4% extra risk, that you haven't paid for. That is getting something for free (assuming you take the car and get it fixed by BMW because your mod is untraceable).

This is a toy example, but serves the point reasonably well, BMW's offer of motorplan isn't them saying "anything that breaks we will fix, so break everything", if BMW had to replace even 10% of their cars major components under plan in SA their bottom line would be shot.

I agree that the operating model in SA isn't ideal, but that is what it is right now.

I disagree with the statements highlighted.

I understand your logic, but you really have covered a lot more motorplan "expenses" in the purchase of your car, and when I say expenses I mean cost price to BMW, seeing as the sale of a motorplan is there to make profit but the use of the motorplan is not (from BMW's side).

Example: the retail price of an M4 engine is 200k (thumbsuck here, remember). The retail price of an M4 motorplan is 300k. You thereby think that 300k is not enough to cover the engine and gearbox and turbos and and and, thus you deduce that motorplan only covers basic expenses before it becomes a loss to BMW once claims exceed 300k . This is incorrect as far as I have learned. See, if you were to claim for a new M4 engine, it doesn't cost BMW 200k. It costs BMW a fraction of that.

BMW's model will obviously not simply be "pay us x and on average we give you x" otherwise they'd not make any profit? If you think their margin is excessive (many do) then that's a separate issue.

If their model is calibrated for x amount of risk, and you are making them face x+y amount of risk then you got y that you didn't pay for. Because that "y" should itself also be marked up by tax, their margin etc. etc.

To my mind there is no way a person who mods a car, has it unmodded, and goes to BMW to get MP to pay for any failure is acting unethically.

Whether providers of services that COULD be used in this manner are themselves unethical is another question all together. To my mind if they make clear to their customers the risks and they make clear how BMW view the service offered, then I believe their hands are clean and all (moral) liability sits with the consumer.

At the end of the day I massively doubt the M4 driver with another 100k to throw at mods is that worried about my moral judgment of his/her actions. So a bit of a moot point. But to pretend like that same M4 driver who expects MP to cover his ass isn't increasing the cost for everyone is simply foolhardy, even if it's a tiny amount of extra cost, we're still paying for other people's duplicity - this is, to my mind, unequivocally, wrong.

You see now here I agree with you 90% :clapper:

But look at it this way... That M4's engine replacement cost was factored into the selling price of the vehicle regardless of how it might possibly fail...

 

[ChefDJ]

I am going to split this thread in a bit.

If there are any unhappy persons, let me know so we can resolve.

The split thread for the debate will NOT be placed in the Xcede subforum.