discussion BMW's and optional extras

[PsyCLown]

Soo I have been looking at a few different BMW's and toying with a few various ideas and one thing which got me wondering and trying to understand is how BMW's are spec'd with the optional extras or standard features. This is purely from someone looking to buy used, perhaps it is different if you are buying new and have the option to tick all the boxes you want.

Looking at some features such as heated seats, heads up display, ventilated seats, electric seats, adaptive headlights, driving assistant & parking assistant packages left me a bit puzzled and wondering if I had missed something... Keeping in mind I was specifically looking at diesel variants but I imagine equivalent petrol variants to be about the same.

With the G20 you can get a 30d, very difficult to find though. I actually could not find any used ones for sale to get an idea of what their spec is like.

G30 you get the 530d, a more premium vehicle compared to the G20 yet finding a "full house" one is not easy. Not all have a HUD, none I found with ventilated seats, approx half of the ones I saw had adaptive headlights, about half had heated seats and not many had parking assist & driving assist packages. It feels as if you get more in the G01 m40d most of the time compared to the G30 530d, which is the top diesel variant available in SA.

G01 30d & m40d, my understanding is that the X3 should be the 3 series equivalent of a SAV (SUV). The 30d is still very hit and miss with Heads Up Display with most not having it, most do not have heated seats either, none had ventilated seats, adaptive headlights some have and the driving & parking assist packages also don't seem to be very common.
The m40d definitely comes with more as standard but once again quite a few do not have HUD, none have ventilates seats and not all have heated seats, most at least have adaptive headlights and the driving & parking assist packages aren't all that common (at least the higher ones)

Then you get the G11/G12, which feels wrong to add this here. It has the tech and the comfort features but it's not a sporty car per say and is focused on the more luxurious aspects than the sporty aspects I feel.

Then comes the 8 series, the G16 this is where things really start to confuse me. I understand BMW wanted the 8 series to be a super premium car but it turned out to be more of a replacement for the previous generation 6 series. This is where you seem to get your cake and be able to eat it too. Whilst not an outright sports car, it's certainly more sporty than a 7 series and as standard comes with a lot. You get a HUD, heated & ventilated seats, heated steering, driver assist & parking assist packages and a lot more.

To me it just seems odd that the 5 series and X3 you can get in similar spec, perhaps the X3 having more overall than a 5 series. In my mind the 5 series should be the more premium vehicle compared to the X3 and have more optional extras. It seems as if you need to go for a larger SAV or the 7 or 8 series if you want to get a lot of the optional extras.
If you do not want a SAV/SUV and want something a bit more sporty then the 8 series is pretty much what you're forced to buy?

Overseas there are some amazing spec'd 5 series and even 3 series. I get that the market is different and I guess most people looking to buy a 3 series are not necessarily looking for all the optional extras. I have seen F10's & F06/F13 with more optional extras compared to the G30 and I do not understand why this is the case.

 

[modocrat]

Blame the peeps at BMW who order the cars..

 

[TurboLlew]

The SUV luxury side caters to the US market and they have more 'clusters' of items that can be selected as well. They tend to be built with a naturally higher spec because of this. That being said, that is not the root of the problems you're seeing:

There is some bias in the observations since I do think people bought 30ds and nicely specced cars BUT they are not going to sell them any time soon. On one hand those who have proper individual/specced cars are still in them and it is not feasible (or in some cases even attractive given current design choices) to 'side grade' or 'downgrade' whilst spending 30-40% more.

I know of a number of people with G20 Pre LCIs that have yet to replace them. I have a mate with a Dravit grey G20 in what is a pretty perfect spec (those things that you are missing from your search in-market) and I don't think he will part with it at this rate - going to have its second plan extension now. I would guess the same will apply to the LCI. The cars that are in the market for sale are probably not the most loved examples and are the ones bought on GFV deals or other lease type things and specced accordingly. They are also bought by people who don't want to wait the 3 months (or however long is needed for each model) to get a build slot and have it sent over.

This brings me to the second issue which is that BMW (like most manufacturers eg: Merc selling R1M cars with halogen lights back in 2022) has very basic specs to hit certain affordability hurdles to get 9999/month or 14999/month etc. People are tempted by the deal that is a blend of a low spec already-built vehicle that might have a flashy colour/interior to close the deal. As easy as it is for a salesman to sell luxury options, it is easy for them to downplay the lack of them. Either way the new buyer doesn't actually spec the car (more like chooses from what's available) and the finance deal itself is driving this. This seems to be working for BMW and everyone else otherwise they wouldn't still be doing it. When we looked at C-class upgrades (which was a 1.1M+ exercise bear in mind), they were basically showing us already-built cars or cars coming though the next manufacturing run and that was basically 'what was available' - you could hope to get a car that was close to the spec you wanted but not all boxes ticked. This was my experience M2 shopping as well.

Third issue is that BMW will go out of their way to sell you what they have as opposed to giving you an individual slot or even just a regular build slot. I can only imagine this has become worse because there are many 'floor' 3 series and 5 series that seem to have been specced by some random person at HQ with a BIZARRE mix of options. My guess is there is some statistical model that gets applied to this. Even floor M cars are not immune and there are cars missing things you'd never 'not' tick on an M eg: the upgraded sound system as the most glaring one. You come across this fully loaded spec that somehow has base sound. It's crazy.

There are a couple of ways to avoid this: one is to wait for a well specced car to come up for sale (and with the way prices have gone, I doubt people are replacing cars like they used to and sales figures seem to support this). Another is to just buy a car new and spec it - easier said than done and usually more expensive considering you don't get the financing benefits and discounts for those 'almost fine' cars that are ready to go. The system is geared for you to buy what's there... and if you're committed to ordering you're not parting with that in a hurry

 

[Nastaliq]

Being in the market for cars recently has taught me one thing.

Most who are building a car from scratch have no clue what they are doing.

You have people who will choose an individual colour paint and interior but then also choose the shittest wheels BMW sells.
And Yes, theyre all not great in terms of aesthetics. This is where that argument of class-versus-money comes up, just because you can afford a bright red interior on a car, doesnt mean you should.

You also have people who will choose model designation deletion on an m50i/50d where the standard grilles, mirrors and accents are all Cerium grey. Youre not fooling anyone with the delete/sleeper mentality, everyone who knows BMW, knows what it is. We can also hear that 4.4l V8 idling at the traffic ligjt, nobody thinks its a 3.0l diesel.

This brings me to my point.

3 Series from F30 going back had niggles and issues with build quality, but in general were built to a much higher standard than the current G20.
G20 owners, chill, but be honest in acknowledging that the build quality is absolutely shit. The leather, if its even leather these days is thin, the dash creaks everywhere, the AC vent sliders are all Temu quality plastic and the doors wont need a "jaws-of life" in an accident, they can get you out with a knife (im talking the plastic ones from Wimpy).

I am also not a Fan of M badges everywhere, WTF. But to each his own. But also why do you need an M Badge on the steering, one on each wheel, One stuck before or after the model number, Decals on the side-skirts and then M-Colour grille inserts. Why.

You know why, because theres a huge difference between an M-car and an M-wannabe.
IF you drive an F90, you sir are a Don, you spent the money and you know what you have purchased. Nobody else needs to know.
If you bought an M550i, my dude, you are also a Don, but are Sly and Tyson the same puncher?
No. So calm down and be lekker.

My honest view is that many many people optioning cars are buying these on 50% residuals and huge car allowances, choosing stupidly at the advice of a BMW sales professional. This is the same as a Dr telling you, you need a root canal, but then he also makes veneers. Fsck you Dr.
Fsck you shit BMW salesguy/person/women.

Its hard these days to find good build quality - look at something like Ambient lighting, looks great at night, but one heavy rain on when you are putting a ticket in a ticket machine, or waving your hand incessantly at Polofields entrance and you have issues.

X5s have heated and cooled cupholders right adjacent to a huge USB-A pot. One quick takeoff, and thats water damage.
There are automatic highbeams which adjust themselves cycling through low and high while you drive, so you inadvertently flash people while driving all the time, without knowing.

BMW used to mean quality, the same for Merc and Audi. All less so now, everything is an option and lets not forget when BMW tried to charge people for Apple Carplay on a 2M car, when a Toyota Yaris had it for free.

I have found better build quality in G30s than G20s, better in G05s than in current 4 series with the braai-grille at the front. Why is all the pastic so cheap and plasticky.

My dad has owned the last 3 generations of the 7 series, minus the current floor to ceiling grille variant (he will likely trade-in next year for that), but the build quality has been good, no rattles, creaks, sounds or much road noise. Obviously a 740li is a different car versus a 3 series, but at 800k plus for an entry level family sedan, surely it should be built better than a Haval. Surely, it should have some small conveniences built in.

Which brings me to my final point.
You can disagree, but the build quality of current Chinese vehicles isnt on par with Korean or Japanese cars (Kia, Hyunda etc), but thats not going to be the case for long.

 

[KarshS]

You need to also factor in the year model between the cars.... Pre covid build cars have way more options than post covid cars. People bought them with many options missing (Some standard options are even missing) due to chip shortage that went on for a long time. This effected alot of manufactures not just BMW.

G Series cars have some flipping annoying issues like the roof creak (Mine is back again ) but in saying that the general build feel of the G20 out shines the F30. G20 has more of the f10 feel which was lacking in the f30. Car feels more solid and grounded. You will feel the difference at high speed.

As much as we may not be happy with some of the new ways of building (Cheaper, lighter ect) some brands have really crashed out in terms of quality. Merc is no longer a premium brand. The last decent car was the c63s since then Merc lost the plot and its absolute garbage.

Chinese cars..... I wont even comment..... Its fun now because you think you paid 50% less than the next german but you can get out of a German.... Lets see with the Chinese . Already seen a few complaints about Haval not wanting to trade in their own cars for newer models by current owners. Its a matter of time that the Cherry Tiggo 8 Pro will be R100K in value and you still owe the bank 300k.

Anyway, we should start buying boats instead. I hear its alot more rewarding.

 

[Mrvaughng]

so heres a addition to your story last year December I sold my wife's mini countryman and I purchased a Kia sonet. We only ended up using the car for two months and ended up buying a new mini instead it's very difficult to move to the Korean/Chinese brand once you're used to the German specifications. There's a massive difference in terms of comfort in a German versus the Chinese fair enough the Chinese technology may be all flashy and new but it lacks the proper German power. .

 

[Red Line]

Chinese cars..... I wont even comment..... Its fun now because you think you paid 50% less than the next german but you can get out of a German.... Lets see with the Chinese . Already seen a few complaints about Haval not wanting to trade in their own cars for newer models by current owners. Its a matter of time that the Cherry Tiggo 8 Pro will be R100K in value and you still owe the bank 300k.

People look at things on paper and say why i should buy a german car when i can buy this Haval GT or whatever for half the price. Sure u are saying money but then the comments are it is just like a X6 🤣🤣 and check all of this and that. The features it has sure, the price is good sure, but living with the chinese cars and their shitty gearboxes and cheap interiors is another thing and it is by no means similar to a german car. To non car people maybe, but I seem to be hearing this type of debate a-lot recently and I get that the way the economy is going we going to see more ppl move to the cheaper brands but there is a cost they dont realize to it!

Life’s too short to drive boring cars 😂😂😂

 

[70007]

……

G Series cars have some flipping annoying issues like the roof creak (Mine is back again ) but in saying that the general build feel of the G20 out shines the F30. G20 has more of the f10 feel which was lacking in the f30. Car feels more solid and grounded.
…

I agree with this. I also found my G20 to feel vastly more solid than the F30’s I had (s/r rattle aside in my case as well)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MR_Y]

At least BMW did not go the car way of Merc's cost cutting on interior quality

 

[TurboLlew]

You need to also factor in the year model between the cars.... Pre covid build cars have way more options than post covid cars. People bought them with many options missing (Some standard options are even missing) due to chip shortage that went on for a long time. This effected alot of manufactures not just BMW.

G Series cars have some flipping annoying issues like the roof creak (Mine is back again ) but in saying that the general build feel of the G20 out shines the F30. G20 has more of the f10 feel which was lacking in the f30. Car feels more solid and grounded. You will feel the difference at high speed.

As much as we may not be happy with some of the new ways of building (Cheaper, lighter ect) some brands have really crashed out in terms of quality. Merc is no longer a premium brand. The last decent car was the c63s since then Merc lost the plot and its absolute garbage.

Chinese cars..... I wont even comment..... Its fun now because you think you paid 50% less than the next german but you can get out of a German.... Lets see with the Chinese . Already seen a few complaints about Haval not wanting to trade in their own cars for newer models by current owners. Its a matter of time that the Cherry Tiggo 8 Pro will be R100K in value and you still owe the bank 300k.

Anyway, we should start buying boats instead. I hear its alot more rewarding.

During this time, cars were even ordered with options and had them removed mid-order (or they rejected the cars that ended up here built without the options and they ended up heavily discounted). There were many that were bought with very oddly matched options including very high end cars that ended up coming with halogen headlights or silly things like having every other box ticked but not having electric mirrors - Plenty of Mercs like this.

There is a way to do strong and light as well as using novel materials well. BMW does this balancing act well IMHO. None of this done right is cheap... The last 'real' Mercedes was the W204/W212 on the smaller side and even those were showing the cost cutting heavily. The S class (well anything with an S in the name) is still decent but suffers from all the technology issues that modern cars have: ie: they look fantastic when new, age like absolute crap and are built at the lowest possible cost. Just what you want in a high vibration/high heat/high temperature swing environment. Imagine having all those giant screens and then bits of it are behind paywalls (you peasant LOL) or entirely disabled? Well Mercedes has also been taken to court in various countries for cutting digital services that they charged for as part of the purchase even within the warranty period of the cars. At this point, proprietary systems from them make no sense.

The interiors of Mercs are very close to the actual quality of Chinese vehicles, with just enough 'extra polish' or 'extra finishing' that it will be a year or two that you feel just how bad they are. Although BMW and Audi quality has declined noticeably in some areas, they didn't fall into the fires of mount doom like Mercedes has. This is because chinese quality has increased but also because Merc has declined to a much greater degree than the other OG brands have.

I have absolutely no issues with Chinese vehicles (particularly electric vehicles where they are strong) and I very well may add one at some point (eg: a cyberster or if some of the more interesting stuff makes its way here). I DO think they are good value and they are a means of keeping people mobile and in new things (especially those that have rented executive cars for the past 5 years and have no equity to plow into the next thing when they can't afford their rentals anymore - amazing how 'doing what rich people do' works, hey... follow them for more tips - another misinterpreted and misrepresented trend for sheep).

But I digress, I do have an issue with someone telling me they are the same... and then also taking the extra step of telling me I'm an idiot for still buying German and the 'trend' is to go Chinese. There is no trend or 'flex' here. The reality is that they can't afford a German car anymore and they can't even afford the band-aids that are in place to artificially allow them to drive one for 5 years and give it back... They also can't afford (or at least lack the appetite) to maintain a german car outside of it's warranty/plan. There is nothing wrong with moving to a chinese vehicle and the only people who seem to want to make this awkward are the people who have bought them. Nobody (nobody decent anyway) is judging them for having bought a chinese vehicle to the point where they have to explain themselves.

People are dropping socioeconomic levels and have to adapt. People ARE the market and so this is not a trend of 'choosing chinese' but rather subsistence and being 'forced' into that segment of the market due to economic pressure. The conversation is always "but an X3 should cost what my Haval does" because BMW is the problem... not the uncomfortable reality that they are earning 10% more 5 years later after 2 promotions and picking up two 'redundant' people's workloads... cos that is harder to face. Companies/people working for companies have the same attitude: everything should be cheaper, except the thing I am making cos I am 'outside' of the market somehow.
We often hear that the Chinese would have no place to take ahold if German pricing was lower. I believe that if people's incomes had kept up with inflation, nobody would even look at the Chinese brands but they would still have a reason to exist as an entry point and for family vehicles.

I am not denying it is absurd what cars cost today... nor am I discounting that it is ever harder to earn enough to buy these things but that is a very complex and uncomfortable topic and can't be boiled down to just analysing the effect (being that people can't afford what they used to and have to buy chinese to get a certain size and feature set).

Anyway, we should start buying boats instead. I hear its alot more rewarding.

The 2 happiest days for boat owners are the day it arrives and the day it leaves.

 

[TurboLlew]

People look at things on paper and say why i should buy a german car when i can buy this Haval GT or whatever for half the price. Sure u are saying money but then the comments are it is just like a X6 🤣🤣 and check all of this and that. The features it has sure, the price is good sure, but living with the chinese cars and their shitty gearboxes and cheap interiors is another thing and it is by no means similar to a german car. To non car people maybe, but I seem to be hearing this type of debate a-lot recently and I get that the way the economy is going we going to see more ppl move to the cheaper brands but there is a cost they dont realize to it!

Life’s too short to drive boring cars 😂😂😂

This is a major problem with a lot of things and it is brought about because people have to find some way to cope on one hand and find very strange reasoning methods to assess things. They also re-package the cope as a flex because they are 'buying something new' and your thing is 'old' - very strange.

There is this belief that has been perpetuated that the cost to manufacture something must be closely linked to the price that is paid or else it is a total waste of time (of course unless it is the thing the person making this statement is producing LOL). There is nothing in this world of any kind no matter what you are looking at where you don't get what you pay for. You can be paying less for a set of features, but there is a 'cost' in the quality OR the integration (especially in the case of chinese cars) OR the backup support etc. You know this when you buy it but people then make this next nonsensical leap to say 'ya and it's the same as x, y, z car'... particularly when these 'features' are just icing on a very complicated mechanical and electronic cake and they are ignoring all the bits 'they don't understand'.

You can get poor value for money (which doesn't mean you are getting nothing in return for the extra money) or diminishing returns (ditto)... but best believe if you are paying more for something, it is generally going to be better. It may not be good value.... but it will be better and you can choose as a consumer whether to buy it or not or whether it is worth it to you. Unfortunately Merc played the game of charging more for something that was barely as good as the Chinese and it has caused so much damage to their brand, it is now no longer going to even have entry level cars... Notice that in these conversations nobody talks about BMW or Audi or Porsche (or even Toyota for that matter) the way that Merc is spoken about. It is THAT bad. Easy to throw stones 'at the Germans' but it really is Merc that is largely to blame for this (Source: my W205).

Media doesn't help with their utterly poor understanding of stats. Now I have never mentioned this before, but having studied science, I did stats at university for 3 years and I even managed to finish with the top mark in Stats III and Applied stats in my final year. When I see media (and people parroting the media) talking the way they do it DRIVES ME NUTS. There is no research, no data and it's just vibes of correlation/significance etc. I can probably count on one hand the number of times a Journo has said "significantly" and it was ACTUALLY significant. They will say anything that is going to get people to click and make them feel warm and fuzzy to distract them from realising they have dropped an entire socioeconomic level... (not just an SA thing BTW).

One of these points is how they analyse the way that the market has responded to the chinese vehicles, drops in the big 3 and the actual reasons behind the trends.. People are broke as F*** or else the BMW/Audi/Mercs would be dominating the sales charts. Rather, they try to show how ACTUALLY it's some hidden gem thing or 'smart' thing to be doing. The harsh reality is that there are a few entry level car buyers buying these chinese brands and the rest are people who can no longer afford to rent their ABCs or 123s... and they fall out of the brand.

Journalism is dead. There is no expose on asymmetrical taxation of local job-creating and economy-driving car manufacturers vs. chinese imports. Too risky and nobody in the automotive space dares take risks. Easier to find reasons why the Chinese are as good as the Germans... so in come the listicles, the comments, the seeded cars and general brain-rot content that follows... This is how the collective intelligence and reasoning of the world goes down the toilet, as logic or 'unpopular truth' is burned at the altar of paid-for or unqualified loud opinions.

The other bit to this is that psychologically the gymnastics that this person buying something chinese has had to go through is immense. There is the family perception, parking lot comparisons, and of course how closely some of us tie cars to signal our own upwards mobility. They are effectively very publicly dropping their standards and in some sense a part of their personality. We have all seen those diesel econoboxes with M-specific or AMG-specific numberplates and chinese vehicles with some plates that point to them having once adorned very serious machinery. This is where these debates stem from @Red Line . Anyone who has anything nice will tell you about how the worst conversations are not with eg: someone with an E63 or CLS63 (if you have an M5) or a Lamborghini if they have a Ferrari. It is with uninformed trash who want to tell you how they would do things differently and why YOU didn't make the right choice to make themselves feel better. "My car also has all your features" is this person going into desperate child mode... extra points for saying we are brainwashed German or Japanese lovers...). You are allowed to have standards and you are allowed to also spend more than is 'necessary'.

My last point is also that this focus on 'tech' must stop. It is beyond stupidity. There was another discussion (admittedly with older guys) recently talking about carplay and I've added this to the Cayenne as well as my Alfa. I want to still understand why we want novel features that just don't get used. I used to say it's a party trick or to strike up a conversation (eg: the 3D remote surround view on my M5 is one of these things)... even then, you must be in pretty poor company to have to pull this one out...

 

[KarshS]

Some of the things i used to look for when buying a BMW:
M Sport
Sunroof
Xenons

These were must haves and any other extra was more of a bonus.

I have to admit.... Being in the G20 has gotten me used to a few things that i now must have in my next car:
Android Auto
360 View camera (Not a must but i have gotten used to looking for curbs, those concrete slabs in front of a parking bay and around trees )
And my new MUST HAVE....Lazer headlights (OMG its amazing at night, just cant explain how good they are).

I never looked for heated seats. Felt it was a VW thing and was never really a must have for me. My cars always park in a garage at night. Now that i have the Scirroco that i use almost 90% of the time it parks outside. I used the heated seats this morning and damn it felt good.

Im all for new tech that servers some purpose but WTF would you remove the gear lever . No man just start putting them back. I really love the look of the g20 LCI and if i cant get into a g80 i would seriously consider the LCI M340 but wht they remove the gear shift

Side note: I cant remember what this thread was about.

 

[tamgoem]

This is a major problem with a lot of things and it is brought about because people have to find some way to cope on one hand and find very strange reasoning methods to assess things. They also re-package the cope as a flex because they are 'buying something new' and your thing is 'old' - very strange.

There is this belief that has been perpetuated that the cost to manufacture something must be closely linked to the price that is paid or else it is a total waste of time (of course unless it is the thing the person making this statement is producing LOL). There is nothing in this world of any kind no matter what you are looking at where you don't get what you pay for. You can be paying less for a set of features, but there is a 'cost' in the quality OR the integration (especially in the case of chinese cars) OR the backup support etc. You know this when you buy it but people then make this next nonsensical leap to say 'ya and it's the same as x, y, z car'... particularly when these 'features' are just icing on a very complicated mechanical and electronic cake and they are ignoring all the bits 'they don't understand'.

You can get poor value for money (which doesn't mean you are getting nothing in return for the extra money) or diminishing returns (ditto)... but best believe if you are paying more for something, it is generally going to be better. It may not be good value.... but it will be better and you can choose as a consumer whether to buy it or not or whether it is worth it to you. Unfortunately Merc played the game of charging more for something that was barely as good as the Chinese and it has caused so much damage to their brand, it is now no longer going to even have entry level cars... Notice that in these conversations nobody talks about BMW or Audi or Porsche (or even Toyota for that matter) the way that Merc is spoken about. It is THAT bad. Easy to throw stones 'at the Germans' but it really is Merc that is largely to blame for this (Source: my W205).

Media doesn't help with their utterly poor understanding of stats. Now I have never mentioned this before, but having studied science, I did stats at university for 3 years and I even managed to finish with the top mark in Stats III and Applied stats in my final year. When I see media (and people parroting the media) talking the way they do it DRIVES ME NUTS. There is no research, no data and it's just vibes of correlation/significance etc. I can probably count on one hand the number of times a Journo has said "significantly" and it was ACTUALLY significant. They will say anything that is going to get people to click and make them feel warm and fuzzy to distract them from realising they have dropped an entire socioeconomic level... (not just an SA thing BTW).

One of these points is how they analyse the way that the market has responded to the chinese vehicles, drops in the big 3 and the actual reasons behind the trends.. People are broke as F*** or else the BMW/Audi/Mercs would be dominating the sales charts. Rather, they try to show how ACTUALLY it's some hidden gem thing or 'smart' thing to be doing. The harsh reality is that there are a few entry level car buyers buying these chinese brands and the rest are people who can no longer afford to rent their ABCs or 123s... and they fall out of the brand.

Journalism is dead. There is no expose on asymmetrical taxation of local job-creating and economy-driving car manufacturers vs. chinese imports. Too risky and nobody in the automotive space dares take risks. Easier to find reasons why the Chinese are as good as the Germans... so in come the listicles, the comments, the seeded cars and general brain-rot content that follows... This is how the collective intelligence and reasoning of the world goes down the toilet, as logic or 'unpopular truth' is burned at the altar of paid-for or unqualified loud opinions.

The other bit to this is that psychologically the gymnastics that this person buying something chinese has had to go through is immense. There is the family perception, parking lot comparisons, and of course how closely some of us tie cars to signal our own upwards mobility. They are effectively very publicly dropping their standards and in some sense a part of their personality. We have all seen those diesel econoboxes with M-specific or AMG-specific numberplates and chinese vehicles with some plates that point to them having once adorned very serious machinery. This is where these debates stem from @Red Line . Anyone who has anything nice will tell you about how the worst conversations are not with eg: someone with an E63 or CLS63 (if you have an M5) or a Lamborghini if they have a Ferrari. It is with uninformed trash who want to tell you how they would do things differently and why YOU didn't make the right choice to make themselves feel better. "My car also has all your features" is this person going into desperate child mode... extra points for saying we are brainwashed German or Japanese lovers...). You are allowed to have standards and you are allowed to also spend more than is 'necessary'.

My last point is also that this focus on 'tech' must stop. It is beyond stupidity. There was another discussion (admittedly with older guys) recently talking about carplay and I've added this to the Cayenne as well as my Alfa. I want to still understand why we want novel features that just don't get used. I used to say it's a party trick or to strike up a conversation (eg: the 3D remote surround view on my M5 is one of these things)... even then, you must be in pretty poor company to have to pull this one out...

Well i do the remember the hate that was thrown and rightly so at the 996 for it's horrible interior in quality .

You mention the W204 as the last good one, frankly it was the only car that carried a C class badge that was any good, the W202 was crap, the W203 was well Chrysler and the 205 and 206 are Chinese. But yet if you look at WBC for these cars with their supposedly interior interiors they match the Audi/BMW from the same era. W205 was indeed the first time pleather (and not MBTex) became a real thing andi can tell quickly. But i have seen plenty of X5 with cracked leather seats less than 10 years old, or A4s where armrests fall appart etc etc. They are all equally bad or good .

In 94 or 95 my old man had a LS400 and my mum a S320. I think the Lexus came in 50k cheaper than the base S, and it was faster and more economical. My mother regularly commuted to the high court / advocates from the sticks so she wanted something that would sit on the N1 steady as a rock at enthusiastic speeds. No matter the load in the boot, and she sure as hell would load it with case files and it just did what was requested consuming fuel at a alarming rate. The S had a issue and she had to use the LS for that trip. She was not impressed saying it it felt like a corolla at speed. My father reluctantly agreed the Lexus is a great car, but the S is the golden standard and you simply can not appreciate the engineering of that car unless you drive it like a German would and then nothing else comes close.

I did a trip to Suncity in my S204 a couple of years back there is a particularly lumpy bit of road on the Marikana road where you see people slow down and start weaving, i just pinned it and held on. The suspension did it's job and the car never once felt like it wasn't doing exactly what Claus intended it to do.

Lexus used to be the cheaper alternative to Benz and for a fair chunk of buyers there was not perceived difference. Eventually Lexus started getting more and more expensive relative to their rivals because that gap between the two got closed and that costed more and more R&D for very little extra return. Then we had the arrival of the Koreans, oh a Kia Sportage is 15% less than a Rav and it's just as good.... no it was not. It was a cheaper and if you poked a bit deeper you found the cost savings. Roll on a few years and people start mentioning Kia/Hyunundaundai in the same breath as their Jap rivals and would we look at that they cost roughly the same now.

And this is where we have a convergence of random thoughts. They are all cheap(er) for a reason. Most buyers confuse grip for chassis dynamics, most people confuse tech for luxury/opulence. Most people have zero effing clue what they speak about when it comes to cars. We can take say a Jetour Dashing and a Mini Countryman. Both are 1.5T cluchfree baby buggies. One is sub 500k with alot of tech the other is 250k more and has a bit of options to tick. One of them has a beautifully responsive engine and gearbox the other makes a 90's 4 speed benz box seem awake. Is it worth that premium? Nope not to me, but i am a fit for purpose kinda guy. If that is the kind of car i am buying it's gonna be Chinese and a EV, or better yet exactly what i keep on doing, a used Toyota Hybrid. I am not a new car buyer. I detest deprecation.

 

[r0ckf1re]

I like my cars to have as many options ticked as possible.

Agree with Karsh on the Must haves he mentioned with Keyless entry added onto that list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[///M_Diesel]

Some of the things i used to look for when buying a BMW:
M Sport
Sunroof
Xenons

These were must haves and any other extra was more of a bonus.

I have to admit.... Being in the G20 has gotten me used to a few things that i now must have in my next car:
Android Auto
360 View camera (Not a must but i have gotten used to looking for curbs, those concrete slabs in front of a parking bay and around trees )
And my new MUST HAVE....Lazer headlights (OMG its amazing at night, just cant explain how good they are).

I never looked for heated seats. Felt it was a VW thing and was never really a must have for me. My cars always park in a garage at night. Now that i have the Scirroco that i use almost 90% of the time it parks outside. I used the heated seats this morning and damn it felt good.

Im all for new tech that servers some purpose but WTF would you remove the gear lever . No man just start putting them back. I really love the look of the g20 LCI and if i cant get into a g80 i would seriously consider the LCI M340 but wht they remove the gear shift

Side note: I cant remember what this thread was about.

Going to add Adaptive suspension

 

[PsyCLown]

Bit of a thread derail but all valid points.

Going back to Chinese cars, my friends wife had a Land Rover for a couple of year and the mileage was getting high and it required more maintenance than they'd have liked so decided to get a new car... After almost no research they purchased a new Haval H6 HEV.

Around 6 months into ownership with under 12 000KM it breaks down, it won't start. Haval do not have any roadside assist team of their own and arrange for AA to come out who tried to jump start it, it moved less than a meter then died so had to arrange to tow the vehicle to Haval.

After waiting for 2 weeks they finally get feedback as to what is wrong, turns out the inverter blew and Haval claim it is because the car was incorrectly jump started and want my friend to pay. After pushing back and explaining the AA who Haval got out was the one who attempted to jump start the vehicle and much deliberation it goes quiet.
Multiple follow ups and waiting while Haval discuss and take on AA, eventually 6 weeks into this whole debacle Haval agree to move forward with replacing the damaged inverter and they will continue to take the matter up with the AA.
I asked my friend how much that would have cost if it was out of warranty, the invoice for a new inverter is R250k...

A brand new H6 HEV is under R700k, so the inverter is over a third of the price of a brand new H6 HEV. I reckon we give it a couple of years and see how many of these H6 HEV's are sitting at scrap yards as the inverter is blown and they are uneconomical to repair. So at first glance it may seem as if you are getting value for money, long term I am not convinced.

When this happened he was seriously considering trading the Haval in as soon as he got it back but after going to test drive a 2023 X1 and comparing what that X1 costs, what BMW would give them for the Haval and that they'd need to fork out around R350k / R400k more ,and they felt the Haval drove a bit better than the X1, and that the extra space the Haval offers is needed for the family they decided to keep it and could not justify spending the extra money for the X1.


I feel this sums up what was discussed above pretty well. Salaries are not keeping up and people are being forced to look at more affordable options, not because they want to but because they have to and these Chinese cars are not as much of a bargain as people initially think.


A work colleague purchased the Omoda C5 a couple of months after they were released in SA, she was driving a 2L NA Kia, I think it was the Cerato.
She wanted something newer and more comfortable. Initially she was really enjoying the Omoda, within a week she complained about how annoying all the safety features were and that she'd disable them and how heavy the vehicle was on fuel and she was considering using the Cerato again to commute to work and back. 🤯

 

[TurboLlew]

Surely that cost includes a new battery as well? That is insane just for the inverter. Many of these cars have the battery management, cells, inverters etc sold as a 'unit' which inflates the cost.

Unfortunately, you end up stuck in a situation like the above where you can't get out of it for love or money and have to live with it for a while to come if you can't stomach the loss.

 

[modocrat]

Bit of a thread derail but all valid points.

Going back to Chinese cars, my friends wife had a Land Rover for a couple of year and the mileage was getting high and it required more maintenance than they'd have liked so decided to get a new car... After almost no research they purchased a new Haval H6 HEV.

Around 6 months into ownership with under 12 000KM it breaks down, it won't start. Haval do not have any roadside assist team of their own and arrange for AA to come out who tried to jump start it, it moved less than a meter then died so had to arrange to tow the vehicle to Haval.

After waiting for 2 weeks they finally get feedback as to what is wrong, turns out the inverter blew and Haval claim it is because the car was incorrectly jump started and want my friend to pay. After pushing back and explaining the AA who Haval got out was the one who attempted to jump start the vehicle and much deliberation it goes quiet.
Multiple follow ups and waiting while Haval discuss and take on AA, eventually 6 weeks into this whole debacle Haval agree to move forward with replacing the damaged inverter and they will continue to take the matter up with the AA.
I asked my friend how much that would have cost if it was out of warranty, the invoice for a new inverter is R250k...

A brand new H6 HEV is under R700k, so the inverter is over a third of the price of a brand new H6 HEV. I reckon we give it a couple of years and see how many of these H6 HEV's are sitting at scrap yards as the inverter is blown and they are uneconomical to repair. So at first glance it may seem as if you are getting value for money, long term I am not convinced.

When this happened he was seriously considering trading the Haval in as soon as he got it back but after going to test drive a 2023 X1 and comparing what that X1 costs, what BMW would give them for the Haval and that they'd need to fork out around R350k / R400k more ,and they felt the Haval drove a bit better than the X1, and that the extra space the Haval offers is needed for the family they decided to keep it and could not justify spending the extra money for the X1.


I feel this sums up what was discussed above pretty well. Salaries are not keeping up and people are being forced to look at more affordable options, not because they want to but because they have to and these Chinese cars are not as much of a bargain as people initially think.


A work colleague purchased the Omoda C5 a couple of months after they were released in SA, she was driving a 2L NA Kia, I think it was the Cerato.
She wanted something newer and more comfortable. Initially she was really enjoying the Omoda, within a week she complained about how annoying all the safety features were and that she'd disable them and how heavy the vehicle was on fuel and she was considering using the Cerato again to commute to work and back. 🤯

What caused the breakdown in the first place?

 

[PsyCLown]

What caused the breakdown in the first place?

I asked my friend the exact same question, he didn't have the answer and did not want to deal with Haval anymore so I just left it.

Either the inverter was faulty and caused the breakdown, in which case it was not the fault of the AA or something else cause the breakdown and the AA possibly caused further damage when trying to jump start the car.

I have a suspicion the inverter failed and Haval just wanted to try put the blame on someone else. In my experience, the Chinese do not offer great after sales service.

 

[tamgoem]

Bit of a thread derail but all valid points.

Going back to Chinese cars, my friends wife had a Land Rover for a couple of year and the mileage was getting high and it required more maintenance than they'd have liked so decided to get a new car... After almost no research they purchased a new Haval H6 HEV.

Around 6 months into ownership with under 12 000KM it breaks down, it won't start. Haval do not have any roadside assist team of their own and arrange for AA to come out who tried to jump start it, it moved less than a meter then died so had to arrange to tow the vehicle to Haval.

After waiting for 2 weeks they finally get feedback as to what is wrong, turns out the inverter blew and Haval claim it is because the car was incorrectly jump started and want my friend to pay. After pushing back and explaining the AA who Haval got out was the one who attempted to jump start the vehicle and much deliberation it goes quiet.
Multiple follow ups and waiting while Haval discuss and take on AA, eventually 6 weeks into this whole debacle Haval agree to move forward with replacing the damaged inverter and they will continue to take the matter up with the AA.
I asked my friend how much that would have cost if it was out of warranty, the invoice for a new inverter is R250k...

A brand new H6 HEV is under R700k, so the inverter is over a third of the price of a brand new H6 HEV. I reckon we give it a couple of years and see how many of these H6 HEV's are sitting at scrap yards as the inverter is blown and they are uneconomical to repair. So at first glance it may seem as if you are getting value for money, long term I am not convinced.

When this happened he was seriously considering trading the Haval in as soon as he got it back but after going to test drive a 2023 X1 and comparing what that X1 costs, what BMW would give them for the Haval and that they'd need to fork out around R350k / R400k more ,and they felt the Haval drove a bit better than the X1, and that the extra space the Haval offers is needed for the family they decided to keep it and could not justify spending the extra money for the X1.


I feel this sums up what was discussed above pretty well. Salaries are not keeping up and people are being forced to look at more affordable options, not because they want to but because they have to and these Chinese cars are not as much of a bargain as people initially think.


A work colleague purchased the Omoda C5 a couple of months after they were released in SA, she was driving a 2L NA Kia, I think it was the Cerato.
She wanted something newer and more comfortable. Initially she was really enjoying the Omoda, within a week she complained about how annoying all the safety features were and that she'd disable them and how heavy the vehicle was on fuel and she was considering using the Cerato again to commute to work and back. 🤯

The story would be no different expect for BMW has BMW oncall and not AA. If you got a Mini SE two years ago your losses would be staggering.

I3's today are selling for less than what a new battery pack would cost etc etc. Welcome to the new world.