discussion Service History debate

[General.Massacre]

Morning all.
So I have an interesting question. and I know this will open a lot of peoples opinions.

What is the current general consensus when it comes to Service History on cars out of plan?
As an example, my M6, it has Partial Service History and although i see the merit in having all the books, history etc. done at a BMW dealership to keep the Franchise History alive and updated. there are many of us that own cars out of plan, and cant justify the exorbitant costs to book in to BMW.
As a point, when i had my E92 335i, as well as the 640d, every time the car was booked in for either a Service, or the Technical Campaign, the cars ALWAYS, without fail, had an an issue when the car was returned to me.
With countless members/enthusiasts/owners being more than capable to handle basic services i.e.: Oil/Brakes/Filters etc., and have the knowledge to reset the Intervals when the Services are completed, either by ISTA, MHD, ProTool or even on the Dashboard using the Mileage Reset button procedure. this is all common knowledge, most of us, the very high majority, are far too anal about our cars to let Oil change intervals lapse, and most even do the them at half the intervals.

So with all the above said, and this excluded cars that have active Motorplans, what is your take on Full Service History as opposed to Partial Service History, but can prove that Services were done, either at a very competent private mechanic, or done by yourselves. (Receipts/Invoices/Parts receipts etc.)

With any BMW, when wanting to consider selling, the very first question from any prospective buyer is "Does it have full service history?". if the car is 7-10yrs+ in age.

Knowing that dealerships no longer care about customers cars in general, and having your car booked in creates more anxiety rather than peace of mind that our pride and joys are being looked after.

Keen to hear thoughts

 

[Gordvisr]

For me, normal oil service intervals , brake fluid flush and major service, i take it to the agents. The price I pay vs going elsewhere is more or less the same for where i live. On repairs or parts replacement, i do myself and put away the invoices for part acquired etc. Not all dealers is careless.
YEs i am not planning to sell any of my BMW's soon but should it get there, it is just easier to prove that it was done, when it comes to the services.
And to put into perspective , my last oil service at agents including cabin filter for an X5 ///M , just below 2300. Pity you had issues when cars were returned to you, was this after service or repairs ? Repairs or part replacements, yes I'll rather do myself. I was fortunate enough not to have any issues and have been dealing with agents in our area with four different cars for the past 8-9 years.

 

[KPM3_30]

Partial history to me means incomplete records. If you've done some work at the dealer and some at an indy, but you have records of everything, then it qualifies as full service history.

I do oil services and brake fluid flushes at the dealer, however everything else is done privately. So long as it's been fully recorded and has supporting documentation, I see no issue.

 

[VinceM]

The general public, still believes in agent history. So, if you have plans to sell your car in future, your potential buyers / audience will reduce if you do not have agent FS history,

For car guys (fanatics, enthusiasts, etc.) agents FS history is not the end and be all as in most cases there is Zero preventative maintenance done and fanatics / enthusiasts buying metrics are wider than just FSH:

1) Car records (service books, receipts, slips, any evidence the work was done and by whom)

2) Condition of the vehicle (no missing parts, healthy engine, straight body, no funny panel gaps, etc.)

3) Background check (accident history, mileage temper checks, where we lean on Coisman and the like, to validate mileage tempering, change of hands (how many previous owners, etc etc.)

Knowing what we know, there are more competent persons and mechanics out there than agents, especially for older cars (where a newbie with 6 months training will work on your car and leave sockets and screw drivers in your car hood). Benji’s comment yesterday about people not taking pride in their work rings true. Remember, when doing DIY on your car, thats the only car you are dealing with, even if a 2 hours job takes you 8 hours, you don’t complain (cleaning all sorts of things in the process), where as a company needs to make money thus must move quick, workers must abide to the SOP and time standards.

I must say though, that the agents service labour is reasonable for things like oil change. It does speed up the sales process if you have the FSH from agents as it widens your audience.

If you have the patience when selling, then the latter is not important.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[MR_Y]

Interesting question...

I think for those who are handy with a spanner, they can inspect the car before purchase and see how well it has been taken care of. In this case, FSH is not really a concern. Let's call this Group 1.

For those who are not hands on, there is not much they can do to get comfort on a used car private purchase. In this case, FSH with agents (or RMI) provides some comfort. Let's call this Group 2.

The majority of the used car buyers are in Group 2, so if one has partial service history, then that limits the marketing potential to this Group.

The issue with Group 1 is that it is a very small group and cars marketed to them may take a while to be sold.

So, quicker sale and wider marketing potential would require FSH.

 

[FILV]

I believe the term full service history includes at Franchise(Bmw) and privately serviced.As long as there is proof at the ocrrect intervals, regardless of where it is taken too, then it can be considered full service history. Partial is when there is missing proof.

For me as long as there is proof that the maintenance is done, that is all i need.
I keep a file of all receipts fro everything i buy for my car. So for example even i buy an airfilter, and install it myself, at least the future buyer see's the part was in fact bought.
Whether its at Bmw or a private service center isn't really a biggie. I will happily buy a car that's been to a service center i trust like Tunetech rather than Bmw.


There is a X3 30D Msport for sale that is for sale that i didnt buy, simply because there is two years of no service history missing.

so as long as you can provide proof of the parts, and the dates makes sense then its all good.

 

[General.Massacre]

For me, normal oil service intervals , brake fluid flush and major service, i take it to the agents. The price I pay vs going elsewhere is more or less the same for where i live. On repairs or parts replacement, i do myself and put away the invoices for part acquired etc. Not all dealers is careless.
YEs i am not planning to sell any of my BMW's soon but should it get there, it is just easier to prove that it was done, when it comes to the services.
And to put into perspective , my last oil service at agents including cabin filter for an X5 ///M , just below 2300. Pity you had issues when cars were returned to you, was this after service or repairs ? Repairs or part replacements, yes I'll rather do myself. I was fortunate enough not to have any issues and have been dealing with agents in our area with four different cars for the past 8-9 years.

In my case, it was Services, and repairs across the various cars. and granted, not all Dealers are careless.

Even though for example my cars are "Update to date" in terms of regular servicing, there is, and has always been incomplete records on all my cars prior to my ownership, this is not to say that any of them have been in bad condition, they've been exceptional.

The general public, still believes in agent history. So, if you have plans to sell your car in future, your potential buyers / audience will reduce if you do not have agent FS history,

For car guys (fanatics, enthusiasts, etc.) agents FS history is not the end and be all as in most cases there is Zero preventative maintenance done and fanatics / enthusiasts buying metrics are wider than just FSH:

1) Car records (service books, receipts, slips, any evidence the work was done and by whom)

2) Condition of the vehicle (no missing parts, healthy engine, straight body, no funny panel gaps, etc.)

3) Background check (accident history, mileage temper checks, where we lean on Coisman and the like, to validate mileage tempering, change of hands (how many previous owners, etc etc.)

Knowing what we know, there are more competent persons and mechanics out there than agents, especially for older cars (where a newbie with 6 months training will work on your car and leave sockets and screw drivers in your car hood). Benji’s comment yesterday about people not taking pride in their work rings true. Remember, when doing DIY on your car, thats the only car you are dealing with, even if a 2 hours job takes you 8 hours, you don’t complain (cleaning all sorts of things in the process), where as a company needs to make money thus must move quick, workers must abide to the SOP and time standards.

I must say though, that the agents service labour is reasonable for things like oil change. It does speed up the sales process if you have the FSH from agents as it widens your audience.

If you have the patience when selling, then the latter is not important.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I completely agree, Agents costs for the basics are not that bad, Oil and Filters being the main one that most buyers are concerned about, and the occasional Brake Fluid flush,
And as long as the history displays a last record in the dealer, i think that suffices as up-to-date. As the Oil Change being the most important.

Interesting question...

I think for those who are handy with a spanner, they can inspect the car before purchase and see how well it has been taken care of. In this case, FSH is not really a concern. Let's call this Group 1.

For those who are not hands on, there is not much they can do to get comfort on a used car private purchase. In this case, FSH with agents (or RMI) provides some comfort. Let's call this Group 2.

The majority of the used car buyers are in Group 2, so if one has partial service history, then that limits the marketing potential to this Group.

The issue with Group 1 is that it is a very small group and cars marketed to them may take a while to be sold.

So, quicker sale and wider marketing potential would require FSH.

I think when Group 2 buys, they not so much into the Enthusiast type vehicles, especially as they get older. (M Cars, 140i/240i/340i etc), i put group 2 into the base model as the majority (No offence of course to anyone in the base model category as even they have the enthusiast)

i believe group1 is the nit-picky group, whereby they want to ensure that any vehicle they have their sights on needs to be in a specific condition, depending ont he seller, they will most likely not be as anal on the FSH aspect as you stated.

 

[General.Massacre]

I believe the term full service history includes at Franchise(Bmw) and privately serviced.As long as there is proof at the ocrrect intervals, regardless of where it is taken too, then it can be considered full service history. Partial is when there is missing proof.

For me as long as there is proof that the maintenance is done, that is all i need.
I keep a file of all receipts fro everything i buy for my car. So for example even i buy an airfilter, and install it myself, at least the future buyer see's the part was in fact bought.
Whether its at Bmw or a private service center isn't really a biggie. I will happily buy a car that's been to a service center i trust like Tunetech rather than Bmw.


There is a X3 30D Msport for sale that is for sale that i didnt buy, simply because there is two years of no service history missing.

so as long as you can provide proof of the parts, and the dates makes sense then its all good.

Fair point on all the receipts, it does provide peace of mind.

Regards to your comment on the X3, if the gap is between 2020 and 2022, i will take no head of this, as this was the Covid lock down timeframe, so if i see a car in that date range of services missing, i generally overlook that aspect.

 

[Bugger]

If doing it yourself then keep all slips showing purchase of items like oil, plugs etc. etc. For any repairs done or tyres replaced, keep all invoices from the tyre centre or indy that you've worked with. Paper trails are hard to dismiss.

 

[Sabretooth tiger]

For all my previous cars I used to do the work myself and kept a detailed history including slips. Never had an issue (touch wood) and even sold cars to dealerships like that. Personally I would rather buy a car with such detailed history as in my case I usually go overboard with maintenance then trusting dealer only. Read some horror stories of even cars with BMW full service history showing signs of bad sludge despite the "service history"
The last 2 years my carpal tunnel has gotten a bit bad to the point that wrenching myself is a irritating and sometimes painful exercise. I however have my cousin who takes care of my cars maintenance. He does everything in-between BMW's crazy 20 000km service intervals. I just go to them for the oil changes, brake fluid flush and coolant flushes to keep the OBD history current, while also keeping documented maintenance of what was done outside those. This includes my car's gearbox service.

 

[M3boi]

For me, as long as there are records of everything being done (slips, invoices, etc) then I'm pretty happy. Someone that makes an effort to document everything done on the car usually shows that they actually cared for it.

 

[General.Massacre]

If doing it yourself then keep all slips showing purchase of items like oil, plugs etc. etc. For any repairs done or tyres replaced, keep all invoices from the tyre centre or indy that you've worked with. Paper trails are hard to dismiss.

Yep i too keep receipts of parts, as well as services or work done to the cars i own, very few people ask for the receipts, but always good to know they readily available if needed.

 

[General.Massacre]

For me, as long as there are records of everything being done (slips, invoices, etc) then I'm pretty happy. Someone that makes an effort to document everything done on the car usually shows that they actually cared for it.

Correct, any owner that keeps records shows how meticulous they are.
Ive always said ill happily purchase a High Mileage, well driven and well maintained car, over a low mileage car with unknown history.

It amazes me however, how many cars (My M6 included), that have questionable service history, some cars have only history up to example 50 000km, where the Motorplan expires a couple years after the last record.
I mean if you have a full motorplan, it boggles my mind that owners dont use it to its full advantage.

 

[osiris]

For me personally, I phone BMW and ask for an enquiry into the car I want to buy, make sure it has no comments etc.

The full service history isn't going to deter me from the sale if I can see the car is in good condition. I arrive with Protools and all the stuff I need to do a full check on the car from an errors standpoint and check mileage hasn't been tampered with.

With my latest Z4 35is for instance from webuy cars, the dash lit up like a christmas tree when I went to view the car, I am sure that would have detered many potential buyers, I hooked up with proTools and saw that they were all caused by a battery going flat. I cleared everything took the car for a drive, checked for errors again, nothing, came back the following day, drove it again and all was good.

I saw that the paddle shifter on the left was damaged which was causing issues with the gearbox as it was forcing it into manual mode intermittently so I brought a spare Z4 steering wheel and they allowed me to fit it to test as I told them if the gearbox is good with a working steering wheel paddle shift I will take the car. And it was.

Obviously I check the car properly for any accident damage, any major leaks etc. I obviously know my way around the N54 platform really well so I brought tools with to check injector revision, coil packs, spark plugs (not all dealerships would allow this) I check HPFP revision and check for waste gate rattle etc.
In terms of my own upkeep, I document everything and do everything myself, the few times I have gone to mechanics or taken my car to the agents I have been burned hard! There was only one time where I got my car back without issues and that was taking it to boxburg BMW which is hugely out of my way to get the centre propshaft bearing/coupling or whatever it's called (cant remember now) replaced, because every other BMW in the southern hemisphere didn't have the tool to dissasemble and assemble the propshaft to replace the part, even though they sold the part to me! But other than that, every single time the agents have touched my car they have damaged it in some way ( Actually thinking back, I got the car back from them with a major rattle that was caused by them putting the exhaust back skew, something was touching, so that was a nightmare to sort out too!), I mean I have a long thread showing proof of this.

So I rather do things myself and document it, that way I know that the bolts are torqued correctly, every nut, bolt, screw, clip is accounted for and if I do break a clip or something, I don't hide it, I know about it and order new from bmw. What I find is that other people working on your car will break clips and just put the thing back together and over time the car gets more and more rattles and you have no idea why! The sheer amount of broken clips and missing screws I found on my last Z4 was shocking! BMW have made a killing off of me buying parts from them due to this.

So case in point, it depends where you're getting the car from, a full agent history for me actually gives me anxiety over buying a bmw from someone who does the work themselves and documents it and takes pride in the car, you can easily see if this is the case when viewing and driving the car.

 

[modocrat]

For me personally, I phone BMW and ask for an enquiry into the car I want to buy, make sure it has no comments etc.

The full service history isn't going to deter me from the sale if I can see the car is in good condition. I arrive with Protools and all the stuff I need to do a full check on the car from an errors standpoint and check mileage hasn't been tampered with.

With my latest Z4 35is for instance from webuy cars, the dash lit up like a christmas tree when I went to view the car, I am sure that would have detered many potential buyers, I hooked up with proTools and saw that they were all caused by a battery going flat. I cleared everything took the car for a drive, checked for errors again, nothing, came back the following day, drove it again and all was good.

I saw that the paddle shifter on the left was damaged which was causing issues with the gearbox as it was forcing it into manual mode intermittently so I brought a spare Z4 steering wheel and they allowed me to fit it to test as I told them if the gearbox is good with a working steering wheel paddle shift I will take the car. And it was.

Obviously I check the car properly for any accident damage, any major leaks etc. I obviously know my way around the N54 platform really well so I brought tools with to check injector revision, coil packs, spark plugs (not all dealerships would allow this) I check HPFP revision and check for waste gate rattle etc.
In terms of my own upkeep, I document everything and do everything myself, the few times I have gone to mechanics or taken my car to the agents I have been burned hard! There was only one time where I got my car back without issues and that was taking it to boxburg BMW which is hugely out of my way to get the centre propshaft bearing/coupling or whatever it's called (cant remember now) replaced, because every other BMW in the southern hemisphere didn't have the tool to dissasemble and assemble the propshaft to replace the part, even though they sold the part to me! But other than that, every single time the agents have touched my car they have damaged it in some way ( Actually thinking back, I got the car back from them with a major rattle that was caused by them putting the exhaust back skew, something was touching, so that was a nightmare to sort out too!), I mean I have a long thread showing proof of this.

So I rather do things myself and document it, that way I know that the bolts are torqued correctly, every nut, bolt, screw, clip is accounted for and if I do break a clip or something, I don't hide it, I know about it and order new from bmw. What I find is that other people working on your car will break clips and just put the thing back together and over time the car gets more and more rattles and you have no idea why! The sheer amount of broken clips and missing screws I found on my last Z4 was shocking! BMW have made a killing off of me buying parts from them due to this.

So case in point, it depends where you're getting the car from, a full agent history for me actually gives me anxiety over buying a bmw from someone who does the work themselves and documents it and takes pride in the car, you can easily see if this is the case when viewing and driving the car.

Imagine walking into WBC like.. I brought my own steering wheel for the test drive

 

[osiris]

Imagine walking into WBC like.. I brought my own steering wheel for the test drive

haha I mean you gotta do what you gotta do lol. But I mean I did arrive with a Z4 to buy a Z4 so they knew I meant business. And I brought a torque wrench to do the job properly haha.

 

[TurboLlew]

I am on @MR_Y 's page when it comes to the groups. If you have any desire to sell the vehicle on in future, you have two challenges:

1. those who are specifically looking for the franchise service history for peace of mind... and the fact remains that while we have anecdotes of poor service or nit picking on specific issues at the dealers, they are by and large the most trusted spot and most people don't really experience (or notice) these issues. You telling them "well I am better or my indie is better than the dealer" is an excuse. For my Alfa, the basic required servicing is still (and probably always will be) done at the dealer... any speciality stuff it goes elsewhere (but also with records). If I have to do anything myself it is documented with pics... The same was true of my F10 M5 (though in the case of the M5 the oil service/brake flushes/coolant flushes etc are so cheap that it makes no sense to bother with it yourself).

2. There are people even on here (and definitely in the broader community) that post about standards and quality and whose cars I have come across either having been purchased by friends or myself. Let's just say that there is ALOT of leeway in terms of what constitutes a "good job" in people's minds (especially when they are self-appraising their own workmanship and skills). If it is your car that you will have forever great. If you are learning and DIYing? Also great. If you want to sell it, don't expect me to care that you have done things yourself to some self-defined standard (a person I don't know from a bar of soap and even if they are a forumite, might only have one thing in common with me being the love of BMWs...) For me, unless I have wrenched with you before (eg: Nikhil, Thiren etc), then I am going to treat that car as though it has no service history in terms of scrutinising it. That limits your audience to literally the circle that knows you quite well. You can buy the best of best parts and fit them badly/break them so invoices don't matter. You might argue that the same is possible at a dealer... but that isn't how reality, logic and plain trust works...

The other aspect is that having a load of invoices doesn't mean anything really until you go into the detail. The devil is in the detail in terms of what exactly was done in terms of preventative work, extra 'in between' services, how quickly issues are addressed (or whether they are left for some time to accumulate for one 'big convenient bill' or whether they remain deferred until things break which is another nuance). Too many guys get a free ride showing a ton of invoices and expecting to earn a 'meticulous owner' badge. Many of those in searches for M3s and 5s might also know of this where there is a ton of documented items but turns out they are caused by abuse as well which is yet another different red flag

 

[osiris]

I am on @MR_Y 's page when it comes to the groups. If you have any desire to sell the vehicle on in future, you have two challenges:

1. those who are specifically looking for the franchise service history for peace of mind... and the fact remains that while we have anecdotes of poor service or nit picking on specific issues at the dealers, they are by and large the most trusted spot and most people don't really experience (or notice) these issues. You telling them "well I am better or my indie is better than the dealer" is an excuse. For my Alfa, the basic required servicing is still (and probably always will be) done at the dealer... any speciality stuff it goes elsewhere (but also with records). If I have to do anything myself it is documented with pics... The same was true of my F10 M5 (though in the case of the M5 the oil service/brake flushes/coolant flushes etc are so cheap that it makes no sense to bother with it yourself).

2. There are people even on here (and definitely in the broader community) that post about standards and quality and whose cars I have come across either having been purchased by friends or myself. Let's just say that there is ALOT of leeway in terms of what constitutes a "good job" in people's minds (especially when they are self-appraising their own workmanship and skills). If it is your car that you will have forever great. If you are learning and DIYing? Also great. If you want to sell it, don't expect me to care that you have done things yourself to some self-defined standard (a person I don't know from a bar of soap and even if they are a forumite, might only have one thing in common with me being the love of BMWs...) For me, unless I have wrenched with you before (eg: Nikhil, Thiren etc), then I am going to treat that car as though it has no service history in terms of scrutinising it. That limits your audience to literally the circle that knows you quite well. You can buy the best of best parts and fit them badly/break them so invoices don't matter. You might argue that the same is possible at a dealer... but that isn't how reality, logic and plain trust works...

The other aspect is that having a load of invoices doesn't mean anything really until you go into the detail. The devil is in the detail in terms of what exactly was done in terms of preventative work, extra 'in between' services, how quickly issues are addressed (or whether they are left for some time to accumulate for one 'big convenient bill' or whether they remain deferred until things break which is another nuance). Too many guys get a free ride showing a ton of invoices and expecting to earn a 'meticulous owner' badge. Many of those in searches for M3s and 5s might also know of this where there is a ton of documented items but turns out they are caused by abuse as well which is yet another different red flag

I think it depends on the person who is taking care of the car. if you don't know them and they say they did this and that and have no evidence and the car looks to be in bad shape then fine. But I have seen plenty cars that have a "full service history with the agents" and those cars were in shocking condition.

Case in point, when I got my car and the turbos were done as per my thread by Autoworx and the turbos were sounding like sirens, I sent the car straight to bmw and they warrented the turbos and replaced free of charge, undertook the entire process at their cost which if I remember correctly came to just under 40k Those lasted 4months and started sounding like sirens again. I then decided to undertake the job myself with Justin and what we found was just rediculous. Nuts over tightned so far that the stud had twisted almost 90 degrees! non matching bolts, pinched orings on the coolant line. missing oring on the intake (which is what caused the rear tubo to fail, as the intake wasnt put on correctly and just slid off due to a missing oring and sucked stuff up from the road, destroying one of the blades). If that is what you think is nit picking well then that is your opinion. After Justin and I did the turbos on my car in 2018, they were still going strong many years later and are more than likely still going strong now with who ever owns the car now.

Same thing when I sent my car to the agents to repair the roof, two and a half weeks of keeping my car and they couldn't fix the problem, charged me 7.5k and returned the car to me with the windows half way up and couldn't be operated, a broken roof and a boot that wouldn't open and a quote of 150k to replace the entire roof wiring harness after cutting into my existing wiring harness and being unable to fix. They also caused major damage to the metal surround that the aft side of the roof rests on, they denied damaging it till I asked them to go through video footage at which piont they saw that they did actually cause the damage and a year later they replaced the part after they tried to badly repair it.

Justin and I repaired my roof ourselves in less than 2 hours!
So yes, you get guys that have never worked on a car in their lives that try and fix stuff or service stuff and do terrible jobs then you get people like us who take meticulous care of our cars and make sure things are always 100% and done correctly!

 

[TurboLlew]

But I have seen plenty cars that have a "full service history with the agents" and those cars were in shocking condition.

These two things are not linked at all. You can have a brand new car that looks like trash, neglected and scratched up if it was in the hands of the wrong owner. You can get a FSH, motorplan-intact car that presents REALLY poorly because of a negligent first owner (eg my F10 M5 when I first bought it) but is otherwise a diamond in the rough mechanically.

So yes, you get guys that have never worked on a car in their lives that try and fix stuff or service stuff and do terrible jobs then you get people like us who take meticulous care of our cars and make sure things are always 100% and done correctly!

We are not disagreeing here. In both the above instance and this example, you have to scrutinize the car to a greater degree. You say "people like us" - but that's what everyone will say. The buyer has to make sure which camp you fall into: reason being that both the "100% and done correctly" crew and the "totally useless" crew will present the same kinds of evidence in the form of loads of invoices and self-reported quality.

No doubt there are plenty of horror stories at dealers which I am not discounting (especially when it is beyond the normal day to day things). These are not the kind of scenarios I am referring to as nit picking (and you probably know it). Even in these instances though, I have seen and heard LOADS of horseshit in my time from people who may or may not obviously be lying (or may even believe their own BS or have their own skewed perceptions of how things have gone). I am not doubting your stories by the way and nor am I attacking you. I am trying to say that this is only plausible because people know you. If you are telling this to people outside of the 100 or so active people here and maybe 500 odd lurkers (?) then you are just some dude claiming things and it comes across as an excuse to justify why you don't use a dealer. To put it bluntly, if some facebook marketplace seller gave me that story I wouldn't even bother looking at the car.

Either way it may not be immediately apparently just looking at the car whether anything of value was actually done. You would have to investigate the car as though it had no service history (I am not saying you shouldn't buy the car at all).

 

[osiris]

These two things are not linked at all. You can have a brand new car that looks like trash, neglected and scratched up if it was in the hands of the wrong owner. You can get a FSH, motorplan-intact car that presents REALLY poorly because of a negligent first owner (eg my F10 M5 when I first bought it) but is otherwise a diamond in the rough mechanically.



We are not disagreeing here. In both the above instance and this example, you have to scrutinize the car to a greater degree. You say "people like us" - but that's what everyone will say. The buyer has to make sure which camp you fall into: reason being that both the "100% and done correctly" crew and the "totally useless" crew will present the same kinds of evidence in the form of loads of invoices and self-reported quality.

No doubt there are plenty of horror stories at dealers which I am not discounting (especially when it is beyond the normal day to day things). These are not the kind of scenarios I am referring to as nit picking (and you probably know it). Even in these instances though, I have seen and heard LOADS of horseshit in my time from people who may or may not obviously be lying (or may even believe their own BS or have their own skewed perceptions of how things have gone). I am not doubting your stories by the way and nor am I attacking you. I am trying to say that this is only plausible because people know you. If you are telling this to people outside of the 100 or so active people here and maybe 500 odd lurkers (?) then you are just some dude claiming things and it comes across as an excuse to justify why you don't use a dealer. To put it bluntly, if some facebook marketplace seller gave me that story I wouldn't even bother looking at the car.

Either way it may not be immediately apparently just looking at the car whether anything of value was actually done. You would have to investigate the car as though it had no service history (I am not saying you shouldn't buy the car at all).

Don't worry I don't think you're attacking me at all This is a debate and I am just debating with you, sharing my own opinions and experiences, I 100% hear what you are saying and I do agree.

At the end of the day, weather a car has a full agent service history or indy mech or diy owner history, a second hand car is a second hand car, you are either going to get lucky or you end up with a lemon or with a car that just needs a little TLC. It's up to us as buyers to make the right judgement call.

When I got the last Z4 I had zero knowledge of the N54 platform and so I got caught off guard hard, I had no idea what I was getting myself into but boy did I find out quickly! Now at least I have a fair amount of mechanical knowlege for when I got the next one, I knew exactly what to look for etc and N54's don't scare me anymore. I have found them to be pretty damn easy to work on especially in the Z4 E89 engine bay. From this I also know what to look for when checking out other BMW's, so I gained and lost from this whole exercise. The gains I would like to think far outweigh the losses as it's in terms of knowlege that will stick with me for life. Before getting the last E89 Z4 I pretty much always used mechanics on my cars. I maybe changed brake pads.

There is another side of the coin though. Who ever I sell this car to will have a full breakdown with pictorial evidence on this forum, I am yet to start a thread on this car, but I will. being able to tell a possible buyer to check a link out for the entire history of everything you have ever done on the car in your ownership can definitely count for something more than a stamp in a book.