Llew's F90 M5

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Oh, I also went to have a look at a few G90s and G99s while I was around.

Seems there are 24 (wagons and sedans) for sale brand new and as factory demos from BMW alone. Many are poorly or strangely specced which is probably not helping sell a R2.8M vehicle, though there are discounts on offer too... R67M worth of stock of what has become a very niche vehicle can't be fun to be sitting on, but even with discounts, first owners are likely to pay a hefty price come trade/sale time.

Again sitting in that interior and as someone who keeps cars longer than most, I think about my fairly simple LIN bus issue on my F90 caused by a dodgy LED, then I look at this 90's jol/club vibe of lights in the G90 and wonder what awaits in 5 or 7 years time, especially because it is more difficult than ever to DIY repairs and code/fix things. I do find the single-pane all-glass roof of the G99 glorious though...

We are two years into the launch of the G90 and I still see only one regularly. Seems the availability numbers back this up. By this point in the F90's lifecycle I feel like I saw more of them than M550s. Either owners are hiding them or it's that next tier of wealth that us plebs don't interact with LOL.

By comparison the M3 (and every other M) is selling like hotcakes.

I have no idea how Omar's, Milan Park, ADW etc are pricing these cars when you can walk into BMW and buy one for 500K-600K less for the same spec brand new or with equivalent mileage. They probably assumed this would be in short supply/limited runs.

Pricing is coming down on these as well.

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Bugger

///Member
I think anyone with an F90 (Comp or not) should hold onto them. The G9x is going to prove to be a bit of a low key disaster for BMW in my opinion. As you have said, I also only see one every now and then, maybe every second week, and I WORK in Sandton, where you would expect to see a fair few. Between the polarising looks and the weight and the relative over abundance of tech, the age demographic this appeals to (that would be us more mature gentlemen lol) means that your typical M5 buyer is probably thinking nah, let me hold onto what I have got.

I tell you what I HAVE been seeing a lot of lately, is X3 and X4 M40i's!
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
I think anyone with an F90 (Comp or not) should hold onto them. The G9x is going to prove to be a bit of a low key disaster for BMW in my opinion. As you have said, I also only see one every now and then, maybe every second week, and I WORK in Sandton, where you would expect to see a fair few. Between the polarising looks and the weight and the relative over abundance of tech, the age demographic this appeals to (that would be us more mature gentlemen lol) means that your typical M5 buyer is probably thinking nah, let me hold onto what I have got.

I tell you what I HAVE been seeing a lot of lately, is X3 and X4 M40i's!

Many factors here: It's that jump past R2.5M (or rather R2M). It becomes so much more of a mental barrier even if you can afford to finance it. The thought of having a R1M or 1.5M loan is daunting, and especially on a car that clearly isn't in demand and likely to be a boat anchor (weight/handling wise and in terms of resale/trade). If you have the cash you're not shopping for a G90/99 (IMHO).

While the interior speaks to the younger demo, the dynamics certainly will not. It is the least "M5" feeling M5 of all time to me. Perhaps it would appeal to even older folks than us? Unfortunately the dynamics are still the worst factor here. I'll live with the trading desk screen in a G80/2/7 because they are still incredible cars. I am not sure even at R1.8M this would be a 'buy' for me.

It's one of those where I feel whoever was going to buy one probably already has.
 

Salt

///Member
Llew...I'm keen to know...what would you choose if you had the cash now between an G80 M3 and an Alfa Romeo Guilia QV?
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Llew...really? 5 word reply? I am asking you because of your known detailed informative posts. Give me more man. Convince us lol.

If you drive a Giulia it will convince you itself LOL. YOU should be convincing me about why I should carry on buying BMWs :ROFLMAO:I think BMWs have lost their appeal to me. There is just nothing that I find exciting anymore where I spend extra time looking at cars, interesting specs and options or rare things. Instead I have to try to convince myself that I should like a car that I instinctively don't (Gxx) - I get that people do and that they are brand loyal. I am also loyal to BMW but that is wearing very thin now.

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While at BMW the only thing I think I would buy is the Z4 M40i - most slept on and probably best-value car in the BMW range IMHO and it is about to go out of production (if it hasn't already).

Commuter: I'd go BYD what what. If you want an appliance, you may as well go for this or one of the others. You'll take a big hiding on ANY European EV to the degree that the loss will more than cover the cost of this little appliance.

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Performance SUV: I'd go Cayenne or RSQ8 over ANY current BMW or Merc SUV. Watch this space next week and see why I am not too happy about Motorplan approach to maintenance either. You can have full Porsche or Audi support for a whole 5-8 years longer than BMW will allow.

960


Sedan: I have the one I want - no desire to change - there is no upgrade path in BMW anyway. They literally killed it.

Track Toy: I have the one I want - no desire to change

Cabrio/GT: AMG GT/SL63 with its new pricing or Bentley CGT. This tier of Merc is more 'traditional quality' than the cheapies/renault engined things, though not without fault. BMW doesn't really have an answer to these IMHO. The M8 aint it.

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Sports Car: Ferrari 296 (its basically a V6TT/H version of my 4C) / 992.2 Targa
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Supercar: BMW doesn't make one anyway

So yeah - I feel BMW really doesn't have much to offer me... and I sort of get the feeling I don't have much to offer them either. They clearly have plenty of customers without having to satisfy us unreasonable folks 🤣🤣
 

Urban963

Well-known member
I think brand loyalty with cars is a bit of a silly thing. Good brands don't always make good cars (look at BMW right this very instant, most of the newer Mercs, whatever the hell Ferrari is doing).
Best approach in my mind is loyalty to the driving experience (or whichever cliche metaphor you prefer).

Best case, grab an E92 M3, C63 AMG and B7 RS4 and then you're done. You have the motors, the looks and a wagon. The circle is complete, everyone loves them and they'll only ever gain value.
 

Salt

///Member
If you drive a Giulia it will convince you itself LOL. YOU should be convincing me about why I should carry on buying BMWs :ROFLMAO:I think BMWs have lost their appeal to me. There is just nothing that I find exciting anymore where I spend extra time looking at cars, interesting specs and options or rare things. Instead I have to try to convince myself that I should like a car that I instinctively don't (Gxx) - I get that people do and that they are brand loyal. I am also loyal to BMW but that is wearing very thin now.



While at BMW the only thing I think I would buy is the Z4 M40i - most slept on and probably best-value car in the BMW range IMHO and it is about to go out of production (if it hasn't already).

Commuter: I'd go BYD what what. If you want an appliance, you may as well go for this or one of the others. You'll take a big hiding on ANY European EV to the degree that the loss will more than cover the cost of this little appliance.



Performance SUV: I'd go Cayenne or RSQ8 over ANY current BMW or Merc SUV. Watch this space next week and see why I am not too happy about Motorplan approach to maintenance either. You can have full Porsche or Audi support for a whole 5-8 years longer than BMW will allow.



Sedan: I have the one I want - no desire to change - there is no upgrade path in BMW anyway. They literally killed it.

Track Toy: I have the one I want - no desire to change

Cabrio/GT: AMG GT/SL63 with its new pricing or Bentley CGT. This tier of Merc is more 'traditional quality' than the cheapies/renault engined things, though not without fault. BMW doesn't really have an answer to these IMHO. The M8 aint it.



Sports Car: Ferrari 296 (its basically a V6TT/H version of my 4C) / 992.2 Targa


Supercar: BMW doesn't make one anyway

So yeah - I feel BMW really doesn't have much to offer me... and I sort of get the feeling I don't have much to offer them either. They clearly have plenty of customers without having to satisfy us unreasonable folks 🤣🤣
Hi Llew,

Thanks for the reply - I've mentioned before that last year I went to test drive the F40 M135i and the new Audi S4. Both are very goodlooking cars imo (I know many don't agree with me), they are also next level inside, but they were so subdued in terms of driving experience compared to my 140...it felt boring to be honest. And I am not knocking the cars at all. So, I decided to keep the 140 and pour some money into the car rather. Now 2 years later and I am again thinking about what next...the F90 M5 is what I would consider. I feel like I need something a little more grown up going forward but still on the edge driving dynamics - and I am keen to see if the F90 tick those boxes. Its either that...or the Giulia QV...which I have admired for the past few years. My only dilemma is the pre facelift infotainment systems does not review well...the facelift is I her much better...also digital dash. The pre facelift is +- inline with the F90 M5 pricing but the facelift QV is G80 pricing.

Ther other alternative is buy a small QV, drive the bakkie daily and keep the 140 and put the biggest turbo I can find on it :ROFLMAO:
 

Salt

///Member
I think brand loyalty with cars is a bit of a silly thing. Good brands don't always make good cars (look at BMW right this very instant, most of the newer Mercs, whatever the hell Ferrari is doing).
Best approach in my mind is loyalty to the driving experience (or whichever cliche metaphor you prefer).

Best case, grab an E92 M3, C63 AMG and B7 RS4 and then you're done. You have the motors, the looks and a wagon. The circle is complete, everyone loves them and they'll only ever gain value.
Agreed - I broke that idea when I bought our first GWM P-Series bakkie...now on the 2nd P-Series already and will most def be replacing that in the coming years with the P300. Excellent quality, just as capable off road as anything else similar (personally proved both dunes and wilderness driving) and safety is top class - wrote the first one off when a drunk driver side swiped us on the M2 highway and we struck the middle highway lamppost at 100km/h (trip log verified) dead center head on - the cabin did not shift an inch. Buy value for money...
 

TBP88

Well-known member
I think brand loyalty with cars is a bit of a silly thing. Good brands don't always make good cars (look at BMW right this very instant, most of the newer Mercs, whatever the hell Ferrari is doing).
Best approach in my mind is loyalty to the driving experience (or whichever cliche metaphor you prefer).

Best case, grab an E92 M3, C63 AMG and B7 RS4 and then you're done. You have the motors, the looks and a wagon. The circle is complete, everyone loves them and they'll only ever gain value.
No use being brand loyal when the brand isn't loyal to it's own identity, is there? Remember all the carping when merc made the C63 a 2l 4cyl hybrid hahaha. BMW has done much the same with the recent launches IMHO, the cars are all fat and ugly and ungainly. Nothing like the sleek stuff of 20yrs+ ago now.

Ironically this is one of the things Porsche has done pretty well. They've managed to both create sub markets (say Macan/Cayenne/Taycan) that are distinct from their core products but don't bastardize their core products.

The fact they still make a manual 500hp N/A car and sell them by the bucketload at absurd costs shows there is a way...
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Hi Llew,

Thanks for the reply - I've mentioned before that last year I went to test drive the F40 M135i and the new Audi S4. Both are very goodlooking cars imo (I know many don't agree with me), they are also next level inside, but they were so subdued in terms of driving experience compared to my 140...it felt boring to be honest. And I am not knocking the cars at all. So, I decided to keep the 140 and pour some money into the car rather. Now 2 years later and I am again thinking about what next...the F90 M5 is what I would consider. I feel like I need something a little more grown up going forward but still on the edge driving dynamics - and I am keen to see if the F90 tick those boxes. Its either that...or the Giulia QV...which I have admired for the past few years. My only dilemma is the pre facelift infotainment systems does not review well...the facelift is I her much better...also digital dash. The pre facelift is +- inline with the F90 M5 pricing but the facelift QV is G80 pricing.

Ther other alternative is buy a small QV, drive the bakkie daily and keep the 140 and put the biggest turbo I can find on it :ROFLMAO:

You will find that fitting big turbos and having your tuner on speed dial becomes less and less appealing over time, especially when you can buy that power elsewhere for less than your repair and maintenance (and mod) bills. There is a point where you can extract some power and reliability from a car after which it just becomes an inconvenience to own and drive it. That E46 in the other thread is a prime example.

Test drive a facelift QV. Thing is on all these cars, the important part is that you like them and they speak to you. A big turbo 140 will be a fun toy but it will never scratch the itch or provide the goosebumps that a G82 or F90 or QV will.

Agreed - I broke that idea when I bought our first GWM P-Series bakkie...now on the 2nd P-Series already and will most def be replacing that in the coming years with the P300. Excellent quality, just as capable off road as anything else similar (personally proved both dunes and wilderness driving) and safety is top class - wrote the first one off when a drunk driver side swiped us on the M2 highway and we struck the middle highway lamppost at 100km/h (trip log verified) dead center head on - the cabin did not shift an inch. Buy value for money...

GWM owes me commission for how many guys I sent to get P Series LOL. Even @Nick . Same applies to BYD. If you want pure value and functionality then that's the answer.

No use being brand loyal when the brand isn't loyal to it's own identity, is there? Remember all the carping when merc made the C63 a 2l 4cyl hybrid hahaha. BMW has done much the same with the recent launches IMHO, the cars are all fat and ugly and ungainly. Nothing like the sleek stuff of 20yrs+ ago now.

Ironically this is one of the things Porsche has done pretty well. They've managed to both create sub markets (say Macan/Cayenne/Taycan) that are distinct from their core products but don't bastardize their core products.

The fact they still make a manual 500hp N/A car and sell them by the bucketload at absurd costs shows there is a way...

On the 'non Porsche' things like the Macan/Cayenne/Taycan, they tend to do a fairly good job of making them very distinct from the underlying Tiguan, Touareg and eTron. Part of it is the styling and finishing but they definitely don't feel like the 'base' car in the way the Urus feels like an RSQ8 (within the same stable). The powertrains on the higher tier models somehow feel different character wise, (or maybe I am also suffering from Porsche derangement syndrome these days LOL).
 

Nish_H

Well-known member
I remember when the Giulia QV launched in 2017 and we did a breakfast run where one joined us.
It was one of the most beautiful car creations that I saw in motion and when we parked off, I spent lots of time walking around the car and admiring it.

When I got to drive one for an extended period before buying my RS4, it was such a thrill and had such an involved driver feel.
Things I remember discussing in my head when deciding between it and the RS4 included the interior look and feel (subjective but matters due to spending most of your time interacting with all the touchy, feely and visual stuff), the surprising suspension which looked kind of off being so high for a sports car and then in order to get the best of the exhaust tone, you had to engage Race mode which switched most of the TC off. With this disengaged, while fun, it was a scary car to drive.

Do I still have it as a saved search on Autotrader, absolutely. Is it on my bucket list to own, absolutely. Would I buy one when it’s time to car shop again, absolutely. Do I want to own an Alfa again, ?????
 

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Salt

///Member
You will find that fitting big turbos and having your tuner on speed dial becomes less and less appealing over time, especially when you can buy that power elsewhere for less than your repair and maintenance (and mod) bills. There is a point where you can extract some power and reliability from a car after which it just becomes an inconvenience to own and drive it. That E46 in the other thread is a prime example.

Test drive a facelift QV. Thing is on all these cars, the important part is that you like them and they speak to you. A big turbo 140 will be a fun toy but it will never scratch the itch or provide the goosebumps that a G82 or F90 or QV will.



GWM owes me commission for how many guys I sent to get P Series LOL. Even @Nick . Same applies to BYD. If you want pure value and functionality then that's the answer.



On the 'non Porsche' things like the Macan/Cayenne/Taycan, they tend to do a fairly good job of making them very distinct from the underlying Tiguan, Touareg and eTron. Part of it is the styling and finishing but they definitely don't feel like the 'base' car in the way the Urus feels like an RSQ8 (within the same stable). The powertrains on the higher tier models somehow feel different character wise, (or maybe I am also suffering from Porsche derangement syndrome these days LOL).
I realized afterwards I made an error...what I meant to say was - the other alternative was buying a small EV or hybrid (not QV), driving the bakkie as a daily and putting a big turbo on the 140 as a 'toy' lol. So, your point is completely spot on, through all my car modification's reliability remained priority when it was a daily.
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
So, I have been trying to write this in a way that does not come off as a hit-piece for a while now.

I am being as charitable as I can, knowing HQ has a problem with dealer QC/QA, Service Advisors rely on the workshop to report accurately and dealers have a problem with Motorplan wanting to cut every corner possible while clients ask simply for a job to be done properly.

What I hope this does is get you to check and double check work yourself, especially motorplan work. You must also interrogate cars you are keen to buy thoroughly even if they have full dealership histories.

A few weeks ago, I began picking up some 'hesitation' under load. It became more noticeable until I decided to read the cylinder rough running values. While not knocking or throwing any error codes, the values were indeed out of kilter, pointing to an aging coil pack and/or plug. It was almost more frustrating not having a drivetrain malfunction yet, but just knowing something wasn't right. Interestingly, ISTA+ showed nothing (other than the dumb LIN bus error for the B&W rear speaker LED), but MMS did find stored knock counts from his scan tool. Of course, it wasn't enough to trigger a drivetrain malfunction code, but it was enough that I could physically feel it.

BMW's software apparently tends to suppress minor anomalies to prevent unnecessary warranty claims. Make of this what you will. My ISTA+ was registering the rough running in the live data but with no errors in DME1 or 2. If the DME registers erratic behavior that it deems 'slight', it keeps it quiet in the background. Even you as an owner may not notice immediately or at low speeds and loads.

The ability to spot 'missing horses' or odd behaviour has been the reason (for ages now), that I have offered to look at these cars for fellow fanatics, because they make intoxicating amounts of power even when they are not at 100% and dealers/sellers know they can write off all sorts of noises and sounds as 'normal' because they don't sound quite like other V8s.

First Coil Packs

Just visually, the coil packs looked quite old from the top. During my time owning this car, BMW has changed plugs as a condition based service, as well as coil packs on a whole bank (at least one) late last year (This is what the advisor had claimed anyway). I remember reading the very neat handwriting stating what had been done.

This was one of the items I specifically asked about as well, because as you know (and because I have it all documented in this thread) the coolant bottle was a repeat job and BMWs guidance was fairly clear on what to do as part of the recall. I am fairly sure during all the shenanigans of injectors and coolant expansion bottles, that BMW did at some point indeed claim to change a bank of coils.

Next plugs:

However, even if I had mis-remembered this, BMW did DEFINITELY do plugs. Whether it was 5 or 10 or 20000km ago, the plugs should simply (IMHO) not look like these pictures... You be the judge from the pics.

Whatever the case, it is clear that they essentially just cleaned the old coils up after the coolant bottles, swapped them around and didn't end up changing them. This was despite me asking a very specific question about it at the time as well (and by now everyone surely knows I'd have been willing to pay cash to have them changed while they were in there if motorplan was not wanting to do so). I feel that they knew they could just brush aside this bit to shut up an armchair/youtube-mechanic customer.

This remains a flaw in the motorplan process in that you do not get to see the parts removed from your vehicle let alone having them returned to you. I already had one prior experience where my F10 M5 had a spark plug change at a different dealer, that only happened on paper (again at a dealer that I thought I had quite a good relationship with!). I would imagine they hope for the best if the car has no misfires at the time and just claim from motorplan down the line if it develops misfires?

Fixing this

Anyway that's life, so apart from second guessing my sanity, trying to find reasons for what might have gone wrong and dealing with the loss of the last bit of trust I had in BMW workshops... onwards I went to a safe pair of hands to get what is ultimately a relatively simple job done.

So just over R13K later we have:
Dinan Coils from VAG Motorsport
The Deago special price on the plugs
Clint's magic touch

I did price the coils and plugs at BMW and while they were not badly priced at around R1200/unit, the challenge is that it is a lucky packet in terms of what brand of coil you get for the S63/N63 platform (Bremi, Bosch or Delphi). Not wanting to waste my time I just bought 8 Dinan coil packs and 8 brand new plugs from Deago.

The Dinan packs are very well made, come with pre-applied dielectric grease at the tips and are available (apparently usually in stock) at VAG Motorsport in Kya Sands. Being BMW approved in the US (though not in SA) also gave me peace of mind to go this route.

I had initially wanted to (still) use BMW to fit the coil packs and plugs but they (wait for it) won't fit non-OE parts in case something 'goes wrong' :ROFLMAO:. They will also not fit parts that you source yourself from Goldwagen that are made by Bosch/Delphi etc (the reason I considered this was being able to control what brand was going into the car). Ultimately, it made the Dinans an easy choice.

I honestly don't know how much more 'wrong' things can go compared to hunting for ghost parts that the service advisor claimed were installed and getting roasted plugs and rusty coils back, but anyway... I DO get it. Even if they are technically BMW approved parts in the first-world.

In pics below, you will notice corrosion on the original coils as well as the condition of the plug tips.

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This is even worse on Bank 2 which should have been the bank that looked the newest and cleanest! Note that we also pressure tested the car just in case (Metal bottle is loading soon...) and there is no leak on either cooling circuit. For me this makes it worse since these are coils the BMW technician saw pretty much in the condition you see them above, decided not to even suggest changing and then popped back into the car, also knowing the car was coming off plan.

On that note, a pressure test is a must on these cars even after the metal bottle is done. Clint and I were lamenting the design of the cooling system with all the tubes over the hottest bits of the motor. That said, they look to be in generally good condition at the moment. In this case I just didn't want my shiny new Dinan things messed up before I could get the bottle sorted so made double-sure LOL.

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The car was back within a few hours, all buttoned up, squeaky clean and working 100% again.


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Clint also thoroughly cleaned the bits of the engine that are often hidden away (after the pics above)

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As to why things turned out this way? Who knows why? It actually makes no sense to me. I can't even say it's laziness. It's just a situation I've had to now deal with. Ultimately BMW Motorplan (of today) or any warranty for that matter will never maintain a car the way YOU would personally maintain it... Similarly dealership workshops are a sausage factory just getting cars out as quickly as possible so the extra TLC goes out the window.

There've been a few of you that heard this and suggested cabals of folks within a dealership colluding to defraud motorplan of plugs and coils, with a secondary market out there ready and waiting to snap them up. Who would be stupid enough to lose a job in Cyrils economy for this small money? I don't know!

Others have suggested laziness, and I tend to think that this IS a factor, but in this case, by the time you're in there doing the other work that definitely WAS done, this is really a non issue). Of course as mentioned, the sausage factory wants cars to move out ASAP, but these dealers are not short on space and often have dozens of customer cars parked all over the campus awaiting things.

Unfortunately quite a few have shared their own similar types of experiences though... The turnover at dealerships recently (techs and service advisors especially) also doesn't help.

Ultimately I am reminded of Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. There is a great abundance of stupidity by many parties above... probably most notably by BMW HQ who offers this kind of experience while trying to get you to part with an extra R2M to buy a worse car than the one you currently have... or perhaps I am just very unreasonable in my expectations?
 
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